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Feeling uneasy about support with pip application
- Chlorinated
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8 years 10 months ago #136154 by Chlorinated
Replied by Chlorinated on topic Feeling uneasy about support with pip application
Hi
I got my pip decision and am on the whole happy(enhanced care and lower rate mobility).
However I am thinking of applying for a mandatory reconsideration as I think I could get enhanced mobility. I got 4 points for moving around and 4 for planning/making journeys however I thought I satisfied '11 d' for the 'planning and following journeys descriptor'. I maybe wrong about satisfying the descriptor so I would be grateful if you could clarify for me.
I have a mental health illness which makes me unable to use public transport reliably. This is because there are specific features about public transport that will trigger my mental health symptoms causing severe distress(anxiety, panic attacks, somatic symptoms etc). As a result I specifically avoid using public transport.
I was under the impression that anybody who couldn't use 'public transport' 'reliably'(as above) should not be considered as being able to make an 'unfamiliar' journey i.e. this would mean they satisfied descriptor 11d and not just 11 b?
I thought my case for not being able to use public transport was very good and I gave a detailed answer on this matter.
However I was given 4 points for 11 b. Do you know why I may have been given 11 b and not 11 d? Have I even understood the descriptor properly?
Please clarify and if I am right, I suppose the next step is to have a phone call/write to them and request the reasons to be given verbally and in writing, then apply for the mandatory reconsideration addressing those reasons?
Thanks.
I got my pip decision and am on the whole happy(enhanced care and lower rate mobility).
However I am thinking of applying for a mandatory reconsideration as I think I could get enhanced mobility. I got 4 points for moving around and 4 for planning/making journeys however I thought I satisfied '11 d' for the 'planning and following journeys descriptor'. I maybe wrong about satisfying the descriptor so I would be grateful if you could clarify for me.
I have a mental health illness which makes me unable to use public transport reliably. This is because there are specific features about public transport that will trigger my mental health symptoms causing severe distress(anxiety, panic attacks, somatic symptoms etc). As a result I specifically avoid using public transport.
I was under the impression that anybody who couldn't use 'public transport' 'reliably'(as above) should not be considered as being able to make an 'unfamiliar' journey i.e. this would mean they satisfied descriptor 11d and not just 11 b?
I thought my case for not being able to use public transport was very good and I gave a detailed answer on this matter.
However I was given 4 points for 11 b. Do you know why I may have been given 11 b and not 11 d? Have I even understood the descriptor properly?
Please clarify and if I am right, I suppose the next step is to have a phone call/write to them and request the reasons to be given verbally and in writing, then apply for the mandatory reconsideration addressing those reasons?
Thanks.
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- Gordon
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8 years 10 months ago #136169 by Gordon
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by Gordon on topic Feeling uneasy about support with pip application
Amonia
The PIP Descriptors as described in law do not make any reference to Public Transport, this is something that the DWP guidance makes reference to.
The four points you have scored is more likely to be related to the issue of prompting and what it includes and does not, we have seen a significant number of members score the same when they expected to score more. There is a detailed explanation of the issue in the PIP Claim guide.
You may be able to score higher due to your problems with Public Transport but I don't think that you can rely on this solely unless you have to. There are two specific issues that you need to explain your problems with in connection with 11(d)
First you must show that you require more than prompting from another person accompanying you on the journey. You must explain the level of support that you need, it may be that there is no level of support that would allow you to overcome your problems, but this still needs to be stated, then you need to explain why prompting would not provide this level of support.
Secondly, whilst the guidance refers to Public Transport in the context of an unfamiliar journey, as I said earlier, the legislation doe not, so you should also try and explain, if relevant, why an unfamiliar journey that did not include Public Transport would still be a problem for you.
Gordon
The PIP Descriptors as described in law do not make any reference to Public Transport, this is something that the DWP guidance makes reference to.
The four points you have scored is more likely to be related to the issue of prompting and what it includes and does not, we have seen a significant number of members score the same when they expected to score more. There is a detailed explanation of the issue in the PIP Claim guide.
You may be able to score higher due to your problems with Public Transport but I don't think that you can rely on this solely unless you have to. There are two specific issues that you need to explain your problems with in connection with 11(d)
d. Cannot follow the route of an unfamiliar journey without another person, assistance dog or orientation aid.
First you must show that you require more than prompting from another person accompanying you on the journey. You must explain the level of support that you need, it may be that there is no level of support that would allow you to overcome your problems, but this still needs to be stated, then you need to explain why prompting would not provide this level of support.
Secondly, whilst the guidance refers to Public Transport in the context of an unfamiliar journey, as I said earlier, the legislation doe not, so you should also try and explain, if relevant, why an unfamiliar journey that did not include Public Transport would still be a problem for you.
Gordon
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- Chlorinated
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8 years 10 months ago #136255 by Chlorinated
Replied by Chlorinated on topic Feeling uneasy about support with pip application
Hi Gordon
1. Regarding transport. Using public transport(also private vehicles) causes me intolerable somatic symptoms and so I do not use it even after prompting. If a decision maker reads the specific details of my 'delusional disorder' it will be easy for them to see why I would be precluded from using public transport.
However it now seems to me that the descriptor is only asking about cognition ability and not psychological distress? In my case I can plan a route and know what I should be doing, however the point is that my psychological distress will either make me not board transport or get off the transport too soon and so unable to execute the route. Therefore I cannot use transport reliably because of somatic symptoms rather than cognitive issues e.g. me getting lost(although continuing to use transport may affect cognitive function).
Do you think this descriptor is asking about cognition only and hence, even if I cannot use public transport reliably or execute a journey/route due to somatic symptoms, I will not be able to score the 10 points?
2. I was awarded lower rate mobility (4 points for walking(due to CFS) and 4 points for making journeys). The evidence for my CFS was limited since the last few years have solely been about mental health issues. I was awarded the walking points based on a 7 year old cfs diagnoses letter and a detailed answer about my walking problems. My consistently bad diet and evidently declining state of health through the years may/may not have contributed to maintaining the 4 points for walking.
Anyway I'm not sure how strong my evidence for walking is and so I may/may not lose it during any mandatory reconsideration which will bring me back to square one or worse. I may lose all mobility(if walking points go), keep it at the same rate or gain the enhanced mobility. Based on what I have said about my CFS, do u think the walking evidence is strong so it's worth fighting for the enhanced mobility(based on journey issue) or might this be a situation where it's better to accept the lower rate mobility and move on?
Sorry for the long text. Hope you can reply. Thanks.
1. Regarding transport. Using public transport(also private vehicles) causes me intolerable somatic symptoms and so I do not use it even after prompting. If a decision maker reads the specific details of my 'delusional disorder' it will be easy for them to see why I would be precluded from using public transport.
However it now seems to me that the descriptor is only asking about cognition ability and not psychological distress? In my case I can plan a route and know what I should be doing, however the point is that my psychological distress will either make me not board transport or get off the transport too soon and so unable to execute the route. Therefore I cannot use transport reliably because of somatic symptoms rather than cognitive issues e.g. me getting lost(although continuing to use transport may affect cognitive function).
Do you think this descriptor is asking about cognition only and hence, even if I cannot use public transport reliably or execute a journey/route due to somatic symptoms, I will not be able to score the 10 points?
2. I was awarded lower rate mobility (4 points for walking(due to CFS) and 4 points for making journeys). The evidence for my CFS was limited since the last few years have solely been about mental health issues. I was awarded the walking points based on a 7 year old cfs diagnoses letter and a detailed answer about my walking problems. My consistently bad diet and evidently declining state of health through the years may/may not have contributed to maintaining the 4 points for walking.
Anyway I'm not sure how strong my evidence for walking is and so I may/may not lose it during any mandatory reconsideration which will bring me back to square one or worse. I may lose all mobility(if walking points go), keep it at the same rate or gain the enhanced mobility. Based on what I have said about my CFS, do u think the walking evidence is strong so it's worth fighting for the enhanced mobility(based on journey issue) or might this be a situation where it's better to accept the lower rate mobility and move on?
Sorry for the long text. Hope you can reply. Thanks.
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- Gordon
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8 years 10 months ago #136269 by Gordon
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by Gordon on topic Feeling uneasy about support with pip application
Amonia
To try and answer your questions.
1. I'm not sure where you have got the idea that this descriptor only applies to cognitive functions, there is nothing in the Descriptor, as written in law, that suggests that, for example; an activity such as planning a route is something that a person with cognitive problems would more likely be expected to have problems with, but this does not preclude those with mental health issues also having problems with this task.
I'm not suggesting that the DWP guidance does not suggest that for some of the Descriptors they would expect the underlying problem to be cognitive rather then related to mental health, but the guidance is not the law it is just how the DWP believes it should be interpreted and there are a number of area, prompting being one, where their guidance is at odds with what a common sense interpretation of the Descriptors would come to.
This is all about providing a credible explanation of your problems in the context of the Descriptors and n this basis I see no reason why your problems with using Public Transport cannot be used to score you the 10 points for 11(d).
2. It's really impossible to comment on your walking difficulties on the information available, the fact that you scored points indicates that it was accepted that you had provided sufficient proof of difficulties with walking, this can only be the result of your CFS if you have no other problems in this area.
Whether these points might be removed or not will depend on the credibility of your information when looked at by another Decision Maker. You do not say what the assessors has stated in this area, the likelihood of your retaining the points will be far higher if they stated in their report that you have problems and recommend 12(b) or higher.
Gordon
To try and answer your questions.
1. I'm not sure where you have got the idea that this descriptor only applies to cognitive functions, there is nothing in the Descriptor, as written in law, that suggests that, for example; an activity such as planning a route is something that a person with cognitive problems would more likely be expected to have problems with, but this does not preclude those with mental health issues also having problems with this task.
I'm not suggesting that the DWP guidance does not suggest that for some of the Descriptors they would expect the underlying problem to be cognitive rather then related to mental health, but the guidance is not the law it is just how the DWP believes it should be interpreted and there are a number of area, prompting being one, where their guidance is at odds with what a common sense interpretation of the Descriptors would come to.
This is all about providing a credible explanation of your problems in the context of the Descriptors and n this basis I see no reason why your problems with using Public Transport cannot be used to score you the 10 points for 11(d).
2. It's really impossible to comment on your walking difficulties on the information available, the fact that you scored points indicates that it was accepted that you had provided sufficient proof of difficulties with walking, this can only be the result of your CFS if you have no other problems in this area.
Whether these points might be removed or not will depend on the credibility of your information when looked at by another Decision Maker. You do not say what the assessors has stated in this area, the likelihood of your retaining the points will be far higher if they stated in their report that you have problems and recommend 12(b) or higher.
Gordon
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- Chlorinated
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8 years 10 months ago #136412 by Chlorinated
Replied by Chlorinated on topic Feeling uneasy about support with pip application
Hi Gordon
I got a total of 8 points for mobility because I had
a) 4 points for planning and making journeys
b) 4 points for moving around(you can stand and then move more than 50 but no more than 200 meters....).
My walking problems are due to cfs and the evidences I gave were:
1. CFS diagnoses paper(8 years old) which states diagnoses but doesn't mention anything about walking
2. Detailed answer as per your guide describing my walking problems due to CFS
Although the walking evidence is limited, my medical history shows declining state of health e.g. eating disorder, development of mental problems so I suppose its reasonable to think my cfs didn't improve and got worse.
The report also says 'I agree you have difficulties with making journeys and moving around. This is consistent with your medical history, informal observations at your face to face, information you provided in how disability affects you and mental state examination'.
I am wondering if I should do a mandatory reconsideration or not because to me it seems the only evidence for my cfs walking problems is a very old cfs diagnoses letter and my detailed answer for movig around. the decision maker may have accounted other things e.g. declining health in medical history to be reinforce that walking must be bad. However I don't know. From what I have stated above, do you think the evidence for my walking problems is quite limited so I might loose the points if I were to do a mandatory reconsideration/subsequent appeal due to the journeys issue?
Thanks
I got a total of 8 points for mobility because I had
a) 4 points for planning and making journeys
b) 4 points for moving around(you can stand and then move more than 50 but no more than 200 meters....).
My walking problems are due to cfs and the evidences I gave were:
1. CFS diagnoses paper(8 years old) which states diagnoses but doesn't mention anything about walking
2. Detailed answer as per your guide describing my walking problems due to CFS
Although the walking evidence is limited, my medical history shows declining state of health e.g. eating disorder, development of mental problems so I suppose its reasonable to think my cfs didn't improve and got worse.
The report also says 'I agree you have difficulties with making journeys and moving around. This is consistent with your medical history, informal observations at your face to face, information you provided in how disability affects you and mental state examination'.
I am wondering if I should do a mandatory reconsideration or not because to me it seems the only evidence for my cfs walking problems is a very old cfs diagnoses letter and my detailed answer for movig around. the decision maker may have accounted other things e.g. declining health in medical history to be reinforce that walking must be bad. However I don't know. From what I have stated above, do you think the evidence for my walking problems is quite limited so I might loose the points if I were to do a mandatory reconsideration/subsequent appeal due to the journeys issue?
Thanks
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8 years 10 months ago #136423 by Gordon
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by Gordon on topic Feeling uneasy about support with pip application
Amonia
We can give specific advice on the forum, for us to do so we would need to have access to your forms and papers so we could make a informed decision in regard to your question, however, we do not have such access and as a result all we can do for members is make sure that they are aware of the issues surrounding a particular situation so that they can make a decision for themselves.
If you look through your previous posts you will see that we have already discussed this issue in our last posts on this topic!
This is a decision that only you can make.
Gordon
We can give specific advice on the forum, for us to do so we would need to have access to your forms and papers so we could make a informed decision in regard to your question, however, we do not have such access and as a result all we can do for members is make sure that they are aware of the issues surrounding a particular situation so that they can make a decision for themselves.
If you look through your previous posts you will see that we have already discussed this issue in our last posts on this topic!
This is a decision that only you can make.
Gordon
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
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