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PIP and anxiety: moving the goalposts?
- bbzpda
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9 years 7 months ago - 9 years 7 months ago #125096 by bbzpda
PIP and anxiety: moving the goalposts? was created by bbzpda
Had a call yesterday from DWP, following my written request for a mandatory reconsideration of PIP for anxiety/agoraphobia.
The guy was pretty blunt and dismissive at first about my reconsideration letter.
I was only awarded 4 points for "Planning a journey" and given the descriptor:
"You need prompting from another person to undertake a journey"
I queried this as I have agoraphobia and can only leave the house for very short journeys - a couple of 100 yards or so to shops without severe anxiety.
At no point on my form or at the medical was there discussion of another person prompting me. What I did say was that I could go a few hundred yards and, if I take a load of Valium, I can go, on a good day, maybe a mile or two from home.
When questioned about this the DWP person said that the descriptor "prompted by another person" could also include me prompting myself to go out of the house!
Eh? When I said this was basically rubbish - the descriptor reads "prompting by another person", he claimed the descriptor doesn't say that, it just says "prompting". Therefore as I can leave the house on Valium and go a short distance then this is a form of self-prompting and this counts as 'prompting'. This sounds to me like the goalposts have been moved by DWP on agoraphobia.
When I said what actually applies was Descriptor E, "cannot undertake any journey", the DWP guy said "any' literally means any. Therefore you must be totally and utterly housebound to get this descriptor.
He spent a little bit of time trying to persuade me that there was no need for a reconsideration as the result would be the same and then when pressed accepted that it was my right and the would reconsider it. This will take some time. He said ring again if I've not heard in 6 weeks, but it is more likely to be 10, 12 weeks or even longer.
The guy was pretty blunt and dismissive at first about my reconsideration letter.
I was only awarded 4 points for "Planning a journey" and given the descriptor:
"You need prompting from another person to undertake a journey"
I queried this as I have agoraphobia and can only leave the house for very short journeys - a couple of 100 yards or so to shops without severe anxiety.
At no point on my form or at the medical was there discussion of another person prompting me. What I did say was that I could go a few hundred yards and, if I take a load of Valium, I can go, on a good day, maybe a mile or two from home.
When questioned about this the DWP person said that the descriptor "prompted by another person" could also include me prompting myself to go out of the house!
Eh? When I said this was basically rubbish - the descriptor reads "prompting by another person", he claimed the descriptor doesn't say that, it just says "prompting". Therefore as I can leave the house on Valium and go a short distance then this is a form of self-prompting and this counts as 'prompting'. This sounds to me like the goalposts have been moved by DWP on agoraphobia.
When I said what actually applies was Descriptor E, "cannot undertake any journey", the DWP guy said "any' literally means any. Therefore you must be totally and utterly housebound to get this descriptor.
He spent a little bit of time trying to persuade me that there was no need for a reconsideration as the result would be the same and then when pressed accepted that it was my right and the would reconsider it. This will take some time. He said ring again if I've not heard in 6 weeks, but it is more likely to be 10, 12 weeks or even longer.
Last edit: 9 years 7 months ago by . Reason: Tick.
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- Gordon
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9 years 7 months ago #125104 by Gordon
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by Gordon on topic PIP and anxiety: moving the goalposts?
PDA
The DWP issued new guidance for the Going Out Descriptor in July and since then we have seen a significant number of PIP results where the issue of "prompting" has been used to reduce the number of points that the claimant received.
The current guide has more about the change and our view of it.
www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/help-for-claimants/pip
The actual Descriptor does not use the phrase "prompting by another person" just the word "prompting, however, the PIP legislation defines a number of key phrases including "prompting"
I am afraid that claimants with agoraphobia and other related illnesses are in a Catch 22 with regard to Going Out, however, I think that the DM's absolute view is unreasonable and would not hold at a Tribunal. There are two aspects to this, if a claimant goes out then it must be done reliably
• Safely – in a fashion that is unlikely to cause harm to themselves or to another person.
• To a necessary and appropriate standard – given the nature of the activity.
• Repeatedly – as often as is reasonably required.
• In a timely manner – in a reasonable time period.
Secondly and in conjunction with the point above, whilst the Descriptor states "cannot undertake any journey" Case Law for another benefits (there is none for PIP yet), takes that view that this does not mean never, but rather means for a substantial part of the time. As is usual for Case Law there is no definition of what this means in practice and it should be reviewed on a case by case basis, but you should consider it as being significantly more than the majority of the time, perhaps 90% of the time, but don't quote me on this.
Whether your "leaving the house for very short journeys - a couple of 100 yards or so to shops without severe anxiety" would be seen as meeting this requirement would be for a Tribunal to decide.
PIP Reconsiderations are taking a very long time at the moment, I would be surprised if you had an answer within the upper 12-13 weeks that they have quoted.
If you have not already done so, please have a look at our PIP MR & Appeal guide for details of the process.
Gordon
The DWP issued new guidance for the Going Out Descriptor in July and since then we have seen a significant number of PIP results where the issue of "prompting" has been used to reduce the number of points that the claimant received.
The current guide has more about the change and our view of it.
www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/help-for-claimants/pip
The actual Descriptor does not use the phrase "prompting by another person" just the word "prompting, however, the PIP legislation defines a number of key phrases including "prompting"
“prompting” means reminding, encouraging or explaining by another person
I am afraid that claimants with agoraphobia and other related illnesses are in a Catch 22 with regard to Going Out, however, I think that the DM's absolute view is unreasonable and would not hold at a Tribunal. There are two aspects to this, if a claimant goes out then it must be done reliably
• Safely – in a fashion that is unlikely to cause harm to themselves or to another person.
• To a necessary and appropriate standard – given the nature of the activity.
• Repeatedly – as often as is reasonably required.
• In a timely manner – in a reasonable time period.
Secondly and in conjunction with the point above, whilst the Descriptor states "cannot undertake any journey" Case Law for another benefits (there is none for PIP yet), takes that view that this does not mean never, but rather means for a substantial part of the time. As is usual for Case Law there is no definition of what this means in practice and it should be reviewed on a case by case basis, but you should consider it as being significantly more than the majority of the time, perhaps 90% of the time, but don't quote me on this.
Whether your "leaving the house for very short journeys - a couple of 100 yards or so to shops without severe anxiety" would be seen as meeting this requirement would be for a Tribunal to decide.
PIP Reconsiderations are taking a very long time at the moment, I would be surprised if you had an answer within the upper 12-13 weeks that they have quoted.
If you have not already done so, please have a look at our PIP MR & Appeal guide for details of the process.
Gordon
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
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