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PIP and driving a manual car (again!)
- Alpro Cherry
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5 years 2 months ago #244476 by Alpro Cherry
PIP and driving a manual car (again!) was created by Alpro Cherry
Hello, I have looked for info. re. how PIP assessors may reject assertions re. mobility due to claimant being able to drive a manual car. I can only drive my manual car in a very limited manner (non rush hour, non 'start-stop' driving, for short periods of time only and only when I am at my strongest and well rested), Gordon or moderators could you give any further advice on how to challenge assessors view of this. I cannot walk 20 metres reliably and have CFS quite severely, however I have struggled to continue to drive occasionally as above, and have waited until getting my PIP sorted before thinking about changing cars (to an automatic). I have sent in with my claim and explanation differentiating between walking and driving, intermittent muscular exertion (low level driving) and continuous muscular exertion (walking) but any further advice would be much appreciated. I would be happy to send my 'explanation' to you if that would help and you could have a view on my argument? Many thanks.
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5 years 2 months ago #244488 by Gordon
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by Gordon on topic PIP and driving a manual car (again!)
Bananaporridge
There are two distinct issues with a claimant driving, one that is reasonable and one that is less so.
First, the DWP will argue that someone who drives has good cognitive ability as the process of driving requires the driver to be aware of what is going on around them, to be able to pre-empt situations that they are approaching and to be able to manage the operation of the vehicle.
They will also argue that it show good navigation skills and an ability to plan a route, however, claimants might be able to argue that if only one journey is undertaken and the claimant had to be shown that route, that they are in fact not able to plan or navigate a route, but I think there is little flexibility in this argument.
Secondly, the DWP view driving as a physical activity, for example holding the wheel requires a level of dexterity, strength and endurance in their hands, arms and shoulders, They also believe that the operation of the pedals is akin to walking and so someone who can drive can also walk. I (for what it is worth as I don't do assessments) think that this argument is very weak, however, most people drive a car to go somewhere and having arrived at that place they may then need to then walk to complete their journey, for example; none of the car parks in my area have lifts that are less than 20m from disabled parking spaces and the Motability shop where I can hire a scooter is the best part of 100m.
Gordon
There are two distinct issues with a claimant driving, one that is reasonable and one that is less so.
First, the DWP will argue that someone who drives has good cognitive ability as the process of driving requires the driver to be aware of what is going on around them, to be able to pre-empt situations that they are approaching and to be able to manage the operation of the vehicle.
They will also argue that it show good navigation skills and an ability to plan a route, however, claimants might be able to argue that if only one journey is undertaken and the claimant had to be shown that route, that they are in fact not able to plan or navigate a route, but I think there is little flexibility in this argument.
Secondly, the DWP view driving as a physical activity, for example holding the wheel requires a level of dexterity, strength and endurance in their hands, arms and shoulders, They also believe that the operation of the pedals is akin to walking and so someone who can drive can also walk. I (for what it is worth as I don't do assessments) think that this argument is very weak, however, most people drive a car to go somewhere and having arrived at that place they may then need to then walk to complete their journey, for example; none of the car parks in my area have lifts that are less than 20m from disabled parking spaces and the Motability shop where I can hire a scooter is the best part of 100m.
Gordon
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- Alpro Cherry
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5 years 2 months ago #244490 by Alpro Cherry
Replied by Alpro Cherry on topic PIP and driving a manual car (again!)
Thank you very much Gordon, although I'm sorry for not being clear, I had already read this. I wonder if you could have a look at my argument in this regard and also I wonder if anyone else has any information re. having challenged this view (re. mobility only, not cognitive issues) at assessment or possibly more importantly, at tribunal?
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- Alpro Cherry
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5 years 2 months ago #244492 by Alpro Cherry
Replied by Alpro Cherry on topic PIP and driving a manual car (again!)
Re. last reply, Gordon, I have explained clearly that I only undertake certain journeys and these do not involve walking any distance at the end of the drive, e.g. driving to dr's surgery, walking 10m into surgery then being wheelchaired down to dr.
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5 years 2 months ago #244494 by Gordon
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by Gordon on topic PIP and driving a manual car (again!)
Bananaporridge
There is no Case Law in this area to draw on so it is very much about your showing that your walking is that restricted that you meet the PIP criteria.
I don't think that there is much mileage in trying to argue that driving is not akin to walking, far better to show the level of your limitation so that the DM does not think that the comparison is reasonable.
Things to think about for Moving Around
You are not required to walk pain free but any pain that restricts the distance that you can walk should be taken into account.
Specifically for the Moving Around activity, if you are able to walk but you are in severe pain when doing so, then you can argue that your walking is not to a necessary standard and should be disregarded.
The legal test requires you to stand and then move (walk), so if you have problems getting up then you should document these as well.
If you walk slowly then it must take you at least twice the time to cover the distance as a healthy person would, this could be down to the speed of your walking but could also be the result of having to stop.
You must be able to repeat the distance, so if you could walk it once but not then be able to walk it again within a reasonable timescale then you should be classed as unable to repeat the activity.
I'm afraid I can't tell you how to show your walking is more restricted but things you need to think about is what you can't do, for example what can you walk in your house, how far is the toilet from where you normally sit, things that will count against you are any trips that you make outside, so for example, how do you do your shopping?
You must be able to walk the distance you can, reliably and on the majority of days, both these terms are defined in the PIP Claim guide
www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/help-for-claimants/pip
So you need to explain what you can, how you are limited and why.
Gordon
There is no Case Law in this area to draw on so it is very much about your showing that your walking is that restricted that you meet the PIP criteria.
I don't think that there is much mileage in trying to argue that driving is not akin to walking, far better to show the level of your limitation so that the DM does not think that the comparison is reasonable.
Things to think about for Moving Around
You are not required to walk pain free but any pain that restricts the distance that you can walk should be taken into account.
Specifically for the Moving Around activity, if you are able to walk but you are in severe pain when doing so, then you can argue that your walking is not to a necessary standard and should be disregarded.
The legal test requires you to stand and then move (walk), so if you have problems getting up then you should document these as well.
If you walk slowly then it must take you at least twice the time to cover the distance as a healthy person would, this could be down to the speed of your walking but could also be the result of having to stop.
You must be able to repeat the distance, so if you could walk it once but not then be able to walk it again within a reasonable timescale then you should be classed as unable to repeat the activity.
I'm afraid I can't tell you how to show your walking is more restricted but things you need to think about is what you can't do, for example what can you walk in your house, how far is the toilet from where you normally sit, things that will count against you are any trips that you make outside, so for example, how do you do your shopping?
You must be able to walk the distance you can, reliably and on the majority of days, both these terms are defined in the PIP Claim guide
www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/help-for-claimants/pip
So you need to explain what you can, how you are limited and why.
Gordon
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
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- Alpro Cherry
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5 years 2 months ago #244497 by Alpro Cherry
Replied by Alpro Cherry on topic PIP and driving a manual car (again!)
Many thanks Gordin, yes I have done all this. Average distance from one room to another in my house is 5-7 metres (I'm not sure what sort of mansions they live in?!), and have clearly explained how far I can walk repeatedly (5 metres or so in the morning, 15 metres in the afternoons when well rested only) and have reiterated that I have a seat in every room including hall and landing etc. Have also made it abundantly clear that when I have driven I am only walking into a house or the equivalent, cannot do shopping etc. or anything like that at all. Also my medical evidence states how far I can walk and is very consistent and clear on that.
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