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Pip Tribunal hearing imminent
- Cat in a hat
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5 years 2 months ago #244784 by Cat in a hat
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Pip Tribunal hearing imminent was created by Cat in a hat
Hi,
I have my court hearing one week today and am in a bit of a panic as the day approaches. I asked the other day about the pip cooking descriptor. I was awarded 2 points for this, but my argument is that the same dangers apply to using a microwave as a conventional oven. Gordon answered that it would be difficult to argue this point.
I understand there was a UT decision about this but I'm not entirely sure?
I wondered also, if the fact my Pip award was a transference claim from an indefinite DLA award (middle rate care and low rate mobility) has any relevance to the fact I was awarded higher mobility under PIP (for an ongoing period) but only got 5 points on the descriptors for daily living, therefore was not awarded that component.
My question is, the fact I was on an indefinite award under DLA for care, and my disability is a lifelong one without any cure, so has not improved over the 21 years I was on DLA. Am I right in thinking that DWP should have explained why they felt I no longer needed help with care? Especially in view of the fact they awarded high mobility under pip under the descriptor 'needs another person assistance, or guide dog to plan and follow a journey?
My other question relates to an ESA claim, which was revised just a month before I my PIP was decided. I was placed in support group under article 35 of the ESA guidelines after I'd been moved from Support group to WRAG. When I appealed, the DWP lapsed my appeal and found in my favour under this article 35 rule. However, they would not take that into account when I asked for MR for my Pip claim. Even though they relied heavily on my ESA med report to decide on my PIP claim.
I need just 3 points to get standard Daily living and wondered if any of the above factors are reasonable arguments for my appeal hearing?
Apologies this is so long and thank you in advance for your advice
I have my court hearing one week today and am in a bit of a panic as the day approaches. I asked the other day about the pip cooking descriptor. I was awarded 2 points for this, but my argument is that the same dangers apply to using a microwave as a conventional oven. Gordon answered that it would be difficult to argue this point.
I understand there was a UT decision about this but I'm not entirely sure?
I wondered also, if the fact my Pip award was a transference claim from an indefinite DLA award (middle rate care and low rate mobility) has any relevance to the fact I was awarded higher mobility under PIP (for an ongoing period) but only got 5 points on the descriptors for daily living, therefore was not awarded that component.
My question is, the fact I was on an indefinite award under DLA for care, and my disability is a lifelong one without any cure, so has not improved over the 21 years I was on DLA. Am I right in thinking that DWP should have explained why they felt I no longer needed help with care? Especially in view of the fact they awarded high mobility under pip under the descriptor 'needs another person assistance, or guide dog to plan and follow a journey?
My other question relates to an ESA claim, which was revised just a month before I my PIP was decided. I was placed in support group under article 35 of the ESA guidelines after I'd been moved from Support group to WRAG. When I appealed, the DWP lapsed my appeal and found in my favour under this article 35 rule. However, they would not take that into account when I asked for MR for my Pip claim. Even though they relied heavily on my ESA med report to decide on my PIP claim.
I need just 3 points to get standard Daily living and wondered if any of the above factors are reasonable arguments for my appeal hearing?
Apologies this is so long and thank you in advance for your advice
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- Gary
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5 years 2 months ago - 5 years 2 months ago #244797 by Gary
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Replied by Gary on topic Pip Tribunal hearing imminent
Hi Cat in a hat
Te first thing I would say to you is, not to panic. When you go to a Tribunal the chair normally asks you what you are hoping to get from the appeal. I was at an appeal last week and I said std for both, the decision maker had awarded zero points for initial claim and MR. At the Tribunal the DWP had a Presenting Officer present. We ended up with enhanced daily living and std mobility which was backdated to Feb 2019.
In answer to your questions:
1) PIP was engineered to be a more difficult to award than DLA, many DLA claimants will receive vastly reduced awards or even no award at all on transfer.
DLA looks at generic care needs in regard to bodily functions, PIP looks at the claimants specific ability to carry out an activity such as eating. DLA was awarded because the claimant needed an amount of care (in time) during the day, the night of both, to help them with that bodily function. PIP looks at the claimant's ability to complete specific tasks within the activity and is points-based, these are clearly defined and it is easy not to score points because the claimant has not shown that they meet those specific criteria.
DLA treated the use of aids as a reason to reduce the amount of care needed, PIP treats aids as an indication of disability and in general they score extra points.
DLA's care need was reasonably generic, PIP treats prompting, assistance and supervision as different activities and as a result, they can score different points.
DLA required that the care was required for the majority of the time, for PIP it is the majority of days.
For PIP activities must be completed reliably, this means
• Safely – in a fashion that is unlikely to cause harm to themselves or to another person.
• To a necessary and appropriate standard – given the nature of the activity.
• Repeatedly – as often as is reasonably required.
• In a timely manner – in a reasonable time period.
Although DLA considers these terms, they are poorly defined as they are implemented through Case Law rather than being defined in the legislation as they are for PIP.
Referring to any more recent evidence you have is more useful.
You should also be aware that there is less focus on the condition/s that people suffer from but their ability to fulfill the tasks as set out in the PIP criteria.
2) If you're going to include your ESA award then you have to explain it's relevance. Remember the criteria for ESA are not the same - so you need to reference why it's there.
The only reason for including your ESA award, is if you can show it's relevance to the PIP criteria. The questions are not identical nor are the way they are awarded - so make sure that you have checked the PIP criteria. It certainly won't harm your ESA award if you are to include it, but be aware it might confirm to them that you don't need help for care.
The same applies to your DLA records - you need to make sure that whatever is included is relevant to the PIP criteria and you need to say why it is. Again the way DLA was awarded is different from how PIP is.
Good luck,
Gary
Te first thing I would say to you is, not to panic. When you go to a Tribunal the chair normally asks you what you are hoping to get from the appeal. I was at an appeal last week and I said std for both, the decision maker had awarded zero points for initial claim and MR. At the Tribunal the DWP had a Presenting Officer present. We ended up with enhanced daily living and std mobility which was backdated to Feb 2019.
In answer to your questions:
1) PIP was engineered to be a more difficult to award than DLA, many DLA claimants will receive vastly reduced awards or even no award at all on transfer.
DLA looks at generic care needs in regard to bodily functions, PIP looks at the claimants specific ability to carry out an activity such as eating. DLA was awarded because the claimant needed an amount of care (in time) during the day, the night of both, to help them with that bodily function. PIP looks at the claimant's ability to complete specific tasks within the activity and is points-based, these are clearly defined and it is easy not to score points because the claimant has not shown that they meet those specific criteria.
DLA treated the use of aids as a reason to reduce the amount of care needed, PIP treats aids as an indication of disability and in general they score extra points.
DLA's care need was reasonably generic, PIP treats prompting, assistance and supervision as different activities and as a result, they can score different points.
DLA required that the care was required for the majority of the time, for PIP it is the majority of days.
For PIP activities must be completed reliably, this means
• Safely – in a fashion that is unlikely to cause harm to themselves or to another person.
• To a necessary and appropriate standard – given the nature of the activity.
• Repeatedly – as often as is reasonably required.
• In a timely manner – in a reasonable time period.
Although DLA considers these terms, they are poorly defined as they are implemented through Case Law rather than being defined in the legislation as they are for PIP.
Referring to any more recent evidence you have is more useful.
You should also be aware that there is less focus on the condition/s that people suffer from but their ability to fulfill the tasks as set out in the PIP criteria.
2) If you're going to include your ESA award then you have to explain it's relevance. Remember the criteria for ESA are not the same - so you need to reference why it's there.
The only reason for including your ESA award, is if you can show it's relevance to the PIP criteria. The questions are not identical nor are the way they are awarded - so make sure that you have checked the PIP criteria. It certainly won't harm your ESA award if you are to include it, but be aware it might confirm to them that you don't need help for care.
The same applies to your DLA records - you need to make sure that whatever is included is relevant to the PIP criteria and you need to say why it is. Again the way DLA was awarded is different from how PIP is.
Good luck,
Gary
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Last edit: 5 years 2 months ago by Gary.
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5 years 2 months ago #244816 by Cat in a hat
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Replied by Cat in a hat on topic Pip Tribunal hearing imminent
Thanks Gary. My ESA review and Transfer to Pip were both happening simultaneously; ESA just slightly ahead of Pip. In Feb2019, my ESA appeal was lapsed and found in my favour under article 35 because (quote) The evidence provided confirms that you continue to suffer from multiple severe health conditions. Stroke, brain aneurysm, seizure, narcolepsy and cataplexy and suffer loss of consciousness, absences, tremors. You struggle to coping socially and with anxiety due to your health conditions. The medical evidence confirms ongoing specialist treatment for several of her conditions and indicate should continue to be placed in support group of ESA. Then in March 2019 my Pip decision came through and despite the fact they had used the medical report from my ESA review (which was much more detailed than the pip assessors report) they somehow decided I no longer needed care/daily living for pip. I argued in my MR that they had revised my ESA and lapsed my appeal in my favour, only a month before. They told me it wasnt relevant.. In the tribunal bundle, they included the ESA medical report, but failed to include the revised decision, or the reasons for the revision. So I figured that since they omitted that important evidence in the bundle, it was probably relevant and might support my argument for being awarded pip daily living. Im struggling to find the right words to explain how the reasons I'm in support group for esa, are applicable to needing daily living of pip. My head is actually hurting from trying to get this sorted into some kind of intelligible way to get across at my hearing. Hope this makes some sense? I really appreciate your thorough answers Gary and am so glad you had success for your appeal. Best wishes, Cat
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5 years 2 months ago #244818 by Gordon
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Replied by Gordon on topic Pip Tribunal hearing imminent
Cat in a hat
If the DWP have included the ESA report without including the revised Decision then you should definitely point this out to the Tribunal panel but be aware that Regulation 35 is in regard your ability to Work and to do Work Related Activity, concepts that do not relate to the PIP activities.
You may still be able to score for your conditions but you will need to show how they impact on your ability to complete the PIP activities, for example; do you need supervision while you bathe if you are subject to loss of consciousness?
Gordon
If the DWP have included the ESA report without including the revised Decision then you should definitely point this out to the Tribunal panel but be aware that Regulation 35 is in regard your ability to Work and to do Work Related Activity, concepts that do not relate to the PIP activities.
You may still be able to score for your conditions but you will need to show how they impact on your ability to complete the PIP activities, for example; do you need supervision while you bathe if you are subject to loss of consciousness?
Gordon
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5 years 2 months ago #244824 by Cat in a hat
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Replied by Cat in a hat on topic Pip Tribunal hearing imminent
Thanks Gordon. Yes, I had a disabled facilities grant for a wet room installed about 20 years ago, so i was awarded 2 points under that descriptor. I'm not sure how i could argue for more points with that though. The descriptors I focused on were the cooking and preparing a simple meal (I was awarded 2 points there) and 1 point for help taking medication. I was awarded no points for social interaction, but feel that should have been a consideration, as it makes me very anxious having to deal with people face to face, especially if Im outside and lose consciousness or have absences, as people have often confused me as being drunk or on drugs which i find pretty embarrassing. Just finding it really hard to put into words how my problems impact daily living . Thank you again
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5 years 2 months ago #244827 by Gordon
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Replied by Gordon on topic Pip Tribunal hearing imminent
Cat in a hat
Make sure that you understand the criteria that you are being asked to meet, the PIP Claim guide has all of the descriptions listed. You then need to work backwards from there.
So for Mixing with Other People the Descriptors are;
a. Can engage with other people unaided. 0 points.
b. Needs prompting to be able to engage with other people. 2 points.
c. Needs social support to be able to engage with other people. 4 points.
d. Cannot engage with other people due to such engagement causing either –
(i) overwhelming psychological distress to the claimant; or
(ii) the claimant to exhibit behaviour which would result in a substantial risk of harm to the claimant or another person. 8 points.
So, to score you will need to show a need for "prompting" or "social support" and why you need these facilities.
Gordon
Make sure that you understand the criteria that you are being asked to meet, the PIP Claim guide has all of the descriptions listed. You then need to work backwards from there.
So for Mixing with Other People the Descriptors are;
a. Can engage with other people unaided. 0 points.
b. Needs prompting to be able to engage with other people. 2 points.
c. Needs social support to be able to engage with other people. 4 points.
d. Cannot engage with other people due to such engagement causing either –
(i) overwhelming psychological distress to the claimant; or
(ii) the claimant to exhibit behaviour which would result in a substantial risk of harm to the claimant or another person. 8 points.
So, to score you will need to show a need for "prompting" or "social support" and why you need these facilities.
Gordon
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