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Advice on pip tribunal appeal would be great fully recieved!
- BoneYardFarm
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7 months 2 weeks ago #284065 by BoneYardFarm
Advice on pip tribunal appeal would be great fully recieved! was created by BoneYardFarm
We started the appeals process to get her mobility upped to full a few years ago now and had no idea just how messed up the system is!
My partner is now on the full mobility aspect of pip and has been for around 4 months.
However we started the Mandatory Reconsideration debacle a few years ago now and had now idea how badly the courts will screw you over.
Once the appeal went to the tribunal stage we had to wait months for anything to happen. No surprise there then. However in July of 2022 last year the courts gave a Judges direction requesting more information. We were given 2 weeks and the DWP were given 4 weeks. Ok, they required a lot more info from them than us! We duly complied and that was that, couple of months later we contacted the courts to enquire what the state of play was and were told the DWP was yet to respond and we should probably give the DWP a call to remind them.
We duly did this only to be told (very hostile) by the DWP that they didn’t have to respond as they had no case to answer and as such we should probably drop it.
We finally got a date of a video hearing of April 4th 2023. At this point the DWP had still not responded. On commencement of the hearing we were informed that the DWP had finally responded late in the previous evening to the court. The judge stated he was happy to accept their evidence even though we had not even seen it. When I asked why they it was ok for the DWP to respond 9 months late and late in the evening the night before the hearing we were basically ignored and fobbed off while the Judge had a laugh with the DWP representative.
When I asked what would have happened if we had missed our two week deadline I was told in no uncertain terms that the appeal would have been dismissed. It was all the DWP representative could do to hold back her laughter, but did break out into a huge smile and proceeded to speak over us.
The judge then adjourned the appeal while he looked into if he had jurisdiction in this case?
I telephoned the courts in late May to be told the entire panel had recused themselves and nobody could tell us why. Since then I’ve left 4 callback requests, no one has had the courtesy to call us back, the one time I have managed to get through to someone we were told that the case wasnt even with a judge anymore and they had no idea what has happened so we should just wait! Since then we have heard nothing, we can’t afford to spend over an hour a time on hold on a PAYG mobile to try and get hold of someone, that’s if you don’t get cut off first!
We are now at a point where I don’t know what to do, my partner doesn’t want to rock the boat as the system is so clearly biased against us she gets scared she’s going to lose her benefits every time I suggest calling them…
Are we just wasting our time here? We did approach a so called specialist no win no fee company but they did their level best to screw us over as well as they took the case on then did nothing and when they failed to return a pip renewal application they insisted they complete as they are the experts by the DWP deadline, they didn’t bother, then ghosted us, leaving me having to literally beg the DWP for another few weeks to return said form, they eventually did relent and give us the time but only after leaving a negative review on trust pilot did the company get back to us stating they only take cases they can win, contradicting EVERYTHING they told us prior.
I just feel like giving up as everything has gone against us through no fault of our own but I simply don’t see how we can possibly win this!
Any advice at this stage would be gratefully received
Apologies for the long message, so thankyou to anyone who reads all of this.
My partner is now on the full mobility aspect of pip and has been for around 4 months.
However we started the Mandatory Reconsideration debacle a few years ago now and had now idea how badly the courts will screw you over.
Once the appeal went to the tribunal stage we had to wait months for anything to happen. No surprise there then. However in July of 2022 last year the courts gave a Judges direction requesting more information. We were given 2 weeks and the DWP were given 4 weeks. Ok, they required a lot more info from them than us! We duly complied and that was that, couple of months later we contacted the courts to enquire what the state of play was and were told the DWP was yet to respond and we should probably give the DWP a call to remind them.
We duly did this only to be told (very hostile) by the DWP that they didn’t have to respond as they had no case to answer and as such we should probably drop it.
We finally got a date of a video hearing of April 4th 2023. At this point the DWP had still not responded. On commencement of the hearing we were informed that the DWP had finally responded late in the previous evening to the court. The judge stated he was happy to accept their evidence even though we had not even seen it. When I asked why they it was ok for the DWP to respond 9 months late and late in the evening the night before the hearing we were basically ignored and fobbed off while the Judge had a laugh with the DWP representative.
When I asked what would have happened if we had missed our two week deadline I was told in no uncertain terms that the appeal would have been dismissed. It was all the DWP representative could do to hold back her laughter, but did break out into a huge smile and proceeded to speak over us.
The judge then adjourned the appeal while he looked into if he had jurisdiction in this case?
I telephoned the courts in late May to be told the entire panel had recused themselves and nobody could tell us why. Since then I’ve left 4 callback requests, no one has had the courtesy to call us back, the one time I have managed to get through to someone we were told that the case wasnt even with a judge anymore and they had no idea what has happened so we should just wait! Since then we have heard nothing, we can’t afford to spend over an hour a time on hold on a PAYG mobile to try and get hold of someone, that’s if you don’t get cut off first!
We are now at a point where I don’t know what to do, my partner doesn’t want to rock the boat as the system is so clearly biased against us she gets scared she’s going to lose her benefits every time I suggest calling them…
Are we just wasting our time here? We did approach a so called specialist no win no fee company but they did their level best to screw us over as well as they took the case on then did nothing and when they failed to return a pip renewal application they insisted they complete as they are the experts by the DWP deadline, they didn’t bother, then ghosted us, leaving me having to literally beg the DWP for another few weeks to return said form, they eventually did relent and give us the time but only after leaving a negative review on trust pilot did the company get back to us stating they only take cases they can win, contradicting EVERYTHING they told us prior.
I just feel like giving up as everything has gone against us through no fault of our own but I simply don’t see how we can possibly win this!
Any advice at this stage would be gratefully received
Apologies for the long message, so thankyou to anyone who reads all of this.
The following user(s) said Thank You: denby, Sheila 966, Wendy Woo
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- BIS
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7 months 2 weeks ago #284070 by BIS
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by BIS on topic Advice on pip tribunal appeal would be great fully recieved!
Hi BoneYardFarm
I am so sorry that you have had to go through this. Tribunals are invariably stressful but thankfully not everyone has the level of treatment that you and your partner have had to endure.
1. When the DWP were asked by the Tribunal for further information, you should never have been told to ring them up to remind them. It is the role of the Tribunal Service to get the information from the DWP and then send that information to you.
I don't know who you spoke to at the DWP, but that's a very strange answer to give and it was not appropriate to do so as it was with the Tribunals Service.
2. The Judge's behaviour in accepting evidence from the DWP, which you had not seen and had no time to read or digest it was appalling and immediately opened the case up to appeal if it did not go in your favour. I am not surprised that the panel has since recused themselves. Naturally, no one will tell you why - but that should never have happened. I don't know why the judge put in an adjournment before that.
3. I'm sorry to hear about your no-win no fee company experience. I have heard of similar things happening to others.
4. You said that your partner has been on full mobility for four months. I'm slightly puzzled by this - because when was this decision made? I assumed if you put in for a Mandatory Reconsideration last year, they would have been paid this award since 2022?
So where do you go from now?
I would contact the Tribunal service again. I know that's difficult - but you can't stay in limbo. If you don't get any joy from them, I would involve your local MP. Some of them can be useful in dealing with such issues and the Tribunals Service might suddenly be more willing to tell them what is happening. It is not rocking the boat to find out whether the case is ongoing and if it is - you want it in writing. In no way will this affect your partner's benefit.
The questions you need to ask yourselves is do you want to continue the fight? Do you think that you have sufficient evidence to show that your partner should have been given a mobility award? Remember, the issue is not about their mobility now ... it is when the last review took place. I wonder why the panel thought they didn't have enough information from your partner.
If you feel ready for the fight - then carry on and go through the full appeal.
If you don't - you can abandon the appeal. If their condition has deteriorated, you can put in for a change of circumstances - in which case your partner will be sent a review form, which will be looked at again.
I can't tell you what to do here - only the two of you can decide. I would make sure that I had read through the Guide to PIP Appeals and hot to challenge a medical assessment - so you know that you put in the best evidence you could. That might help you make a decision.
If you have any further questions - come back and ask and we will try to help
BIS
I am so sorry that you have had to go through this. Tribunals are invariably stressful but thankfully not everyone has the level of treatment that you and your partner have had to endure.
1. When the DWP were asked by the Tribunal for further information, you should never have been told to ring them up to remind them. It is the role of the Tribunal Service to get the information from the DWP and then send that information to you.
I don't know who you spoke to at the DWP, but that's a very strange answer to give and it was not appropriate to do so as it was with the Tribunals Service.
2. The Judge's behaviour in accepting evidence from the DWP, which you had not seen and had no time to read or digest it was appalling and immediately opened the case up to appeal if it did not go in your favour. I am not surprised that the panel has since recused themselves. Naturally, no one will tell you why - but that should never have happened. I don't know why the judge put in an adjournment before that.
3. I'm sorry to hear about your no-win no fee company experience. I have heard of similar things happening to others.
4. You said that your partner has been on full mobility for four months. I'm slightly puzzled by this - because when was this decision made? I assumed if you put in for a Mandatory Reconsideration last year, they would have been paid this award since 2022?
So where do you go from now?
I would contact the Tribunal service again. I know that's difficult - but you can't stay in limbo. If you don't get any joy from them, I would involve your local MP. Some of them can be useful in dealing with such issues and the Tribunals Service might suddenly be more willing to tell them what is happening. It is not rocking the boat to find out whether the case is ongoing and if it is - you want it in writing. In no way will this affect your partner's benefit.
The questions you need to ask yourselves is do you want to continue the fight? Do you think that you have sufficient evidence to show that your partner should have been given a mobility award? Remember, the issue is not about their mobility now ... it is when the last review took place. I wonder why the panel thought they didn't have enough information from your partner.
If you feel ready for the fight - then carry on and go through the full appeal.
If you don't - you can abandon the appeal. If their condition has deteriorated, you can put in for a change of circumstances - in which case your partner will be sent a review form, which will be looked at again.
I can't tell you what to do here - only the two of you can decide. I would make sure that I had read through the Guide to PIP Appeals and hot to challenge a medical assessment - so you know that you put in the best evidence you could. That might help you make a decision.
If you have any further questions - come back and ask and we will try to help
BIS
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7 months 1 week ago - 7 months 1 week ago #284075 by LL26
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by LL26 on topic Advice on pip tribunal appeal would be great fully recieved!
Hi BoneYardFarm,
To add to what BIS has said here is my two pennies worth... If you are minded to continue (and as BIS has observed a lot of wrong things have happened here!)
I suggest that you write a complaint to the Tribunal service. You can write the letter in first person on behalf of your partner and partner then signs or write the letter as 3rd person just be consistent.
My example will be as 'I am writing...'
Using what you have written above, plus any other extra info that is relevant, condense the history of the case into bullet points with dates
Eg
• [ date of claim]
• [ Decision date]
• [Appeal lodged date]
• [initial Directions -explain briefly ]
•[ hearing date - case adjourned explain why using one or two sentences. Say what went wrong ]
[ list each phone call look up your phone records if you don't remember - explain about lack if responses]
Etc etc
Leave out about the No win/ no fee legal advice as that's not relevant to the Tribunal.
The letter is a suggestion and you can of course amend it to suit your complaint better
Parts in [] are instructions
Give the Tribunal ref no and NI number and claimant's name in the heading with PIP Appeal - Complaint
Dear Sirs,
I am writing to complain about the undue delay and the unsatisfactory manner of the Tribunal's handling of my PIP Appeal. My complaint is as follows: •There have unexplained and unnecessary adjournments
•No response to repeated phone calls
• inappropriate behaviour by Tribunal Panel members at a hearing
The manner in which this case has been dealt with has caused me significant distress. [ explain more?] I do not believe that the Tribunal has been dealing with the matter 'fairly and justly' in accordance with the 'overriding objective' as per Rule 2 Tribunal Procedure (First-tier Tribunal) (Social Entitlement Chamber) Rules 2008 Overriding objective and parties’ obligation to co-operate with the Tribunal
2.—(1) The overriding objective of these Rules is to enable the Tribunal to deal with cases fairly and justly.
(2) Dealing with a case fairly and justly includes— (a)dealing with the case in ways which are proportionate to the importance of the case, the complexity of the issues, the anticipated costs and the resources of the parties;
(b)avoiding unnecessary formality and seeking flexibility in the proceedings;
(c)ensuring, so far as practicable, that the parties are able to participate fully in the proceedings;
(d)using any special expertise of the Tribunal effectively; and (e)avoiding delay, so far as compatible with proper consideration of the issues.
(3) The Tribunal must seek to give effect to the overriding objective when it—
(a)exercises any power under these Rules; or (b)interprets any rule or practice direction.
(4) Parties must— (a)help the Tribunal to further the overriding objective; and
(b)co-operate with the Tribunal generally.
The history of this case is as follows:
[insert bullet point history]
I look forward to receiving
•a full explanation for the delays and the manner of the Tribunal members
• a new hearing date at the earliest possible date • [ if you have suffered any direct loss eg day off work to attend hearing/ phone bills etc ask for direct compensation - you could ask for compensation for the distress caused, but thus is hard to quantify and its unlikely this will be awarded.]
I trust that this matter can be dealt without further delay, and that suitable Directions can be issued accordingly.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Yours faithfully
[ signature]
[Make sure your name/ ref numbers are on all pieces if paper. ]
I hope this helps.
LL26
To add to what BIS has said here is my two pennies worth... If you are minded to continue (and as BIS has observed a lot of wrong things have happened here!)
I suggest that you write a complaint to the Tribunal service. You can write the letter in first person on behalf of your partner and partner then signs or write the letter as 3rd person just be consistent.
My example will be as 'I am writing...'
Using what you have written above, plus any other extra info that is relevant, condense the history of the case into bullet points with dates
Eg
• [ date of claim]
• [ Decision date]
• [Appeal lodged date]
• [initial Directions -explain briefly ]
•[ hearing date - case adjourned explain why using one or two sentences. Say what went wrong ]
[ list each phone call look up your phone records if you don't remember - explain about lack if responses]
Etc etc
Leave out about the No win/ no fee legal advice as that's not relevant to the Tribunal.
The letter is a suggestion and you can of course amend it to suit your complaint better
Parts in [] are instructions
Give the Tribunal ref no and NI number and claimant's name in the heading with PIP Appeal - Complaint
Dear Sirs,
I am writing to complain about the undue delay and the unsatisfactory manner of the Tribunal's handling of my PIP Appeal. My complaint is as follows: •There have unexplained and unnecessary adjournments
•No response to repeated phone calls
• inappropriate behaviour by Tribunal Panel members at a hearing
The manner in which this case has been dealt with has caused me significant distress. [ explain more?] I do not believe that the Tribunal has been dealing with the matter 'fairly and justly' in accordance with the 'overriding objective' as per Rule 2 Tribunal Procedure (First-tier Tribunal) (Social Entitlement Chamber) Rules 2008 Overriding objective and parties’ obligation to co-operate with the Tribunal
2.—(1) The overriding objective of these Rules is to enable the Tribunal to deal with cases fairly and justly.
(2) Dealing with a case fairly and justly includes— (a)dealing with the case in ways which are proportionate to the importance of the case, the complexity of the issues, the anticipated costs and the resources of the parties;
(b)avoiding unnecessary formality and seeking flexibility in the proceedings;
(c)ensuring, so far as practicable, that the parties are able to participate fully in the proceedings;
(d)using any special expertise of the Tribunal effectively; and (e)avoiding delay, so far as compatible with proper consideration of the issues.
(3) The Tribunal must seek to give effect to the overriding objective when it—
(a)exercises any power under these Rules; or (b)interprets any rule or practice direction.
(4) Parties must— (a)help the Tribunal to further the overriding objective; and
(b)co-operate with the Tribunal generally.
The history of this case is as follows:
[insert bullet point history]
I look forward to receiving
•a full explanation for the delays and the manner of the Tribunal members
• a new hearing date at the earliest possible date • [ if you have suffered any direct loss eg day off work to attend hearing/ phone bills etc ask for direct compensation - you could ask for compensation for the distress caused, but thus is hard to quantify and its unlikely this will be awarded.]
I trust that this matter can be dealt without further delay, and that suitable Directions can be issued accordingly.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Yours faithfully
[ signature]
[Make sure your name/ ref numbers are on all pieces if paper. ]
I hope this helps.
LL26
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Last edit: 7 months 1 week ago by LL26.
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7 months 1 week ago #284139 by raindaisy
Replied by raindaisy on topic Advice on pip tribunal appeal would be great fully recieved!
awesome letter of complaint.
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- BoneYardFarm
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6 months 1 week ago #285108 by BoneYardFarm
Replied by BoneYardFarm on topic Advice on pip tribunal appeal would be great fully recieved!
Many thanks for the response. I shall use the template again.
However, I have now sent 3 letters of complaint and have yet to receive any response whatsoever!
I’m not expecting a response to any correspondence I send as it’s become increasingly obvious that responding to claimants simply is not important to them.
I will, however not be letting this go and will advise on the unlikely event I get a response!
Many thanks
However, I have now sent 3 letters of complaint and have yet to receive any response whatsoever!
I’m not expecting a response to any correspondence I send as it’s become increasingly obvious that responding to claimants simply is not important to them.
I will, however not be letting this go and will advise on the unlikely event I get a response!
Many thanks
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3 months 3 weeks ago #287093 by BoneYardFarm
Replied by BoneYardFarm on topic Advice on pip tribunal appeal would be great fully recieved!
Just thought I would post an update on my partners tribunal case.
As advised I used the templates to send a letter of complaint, sent it guaranteed delivery as I did 2 of the 3 others. The tracking confirms delivery but the courts say no letters have ever been received!
Not that I’m surprised… appears to be they take delivery, see it’s some sort of complaint then just bin it!
Seems little point in doing it again as they are clearly not bothered and couldn’t give a shit if people are being treated fairly or not!
Now to the tribunal hearing.
Firstly the DWP didn’t bother to show up and secondly the judge (3rd judge now) stated she does not have jurisdiction over this case.
She said they are having issues with the DWP not showing up but said even if she was the right judge she would not have continued without them. When questioned by me as to why it had AGAIN been given to a judge that did not have jurisdiction she didn’t have any answer except to blame clerks etc.
When I asked why the previous judge was happy to accept evidence from the DWP 9 months late at 9pm the night before the hearing with nothing given to us, once again she had no answer but did say as it’s been accepted it’s accepted and no judge will override that. I asked if any of my letters of complaint sent guaranteed delivery were now in the bundle pack (she was the first judge of 3 that stated she had read it, the previous 2 said they hadn’t until 30 minutes earlier when they ‘flicked through’) but said no there was nothing that had been added except the ‘evidence’ the Dwp produced 9 months after the 1st judges deadline for requested documents! Do, adjourned AGAIN through no fault of ours!
All in all I’ve pretty much given up on this now, the courts aren’t interested, judges are quite happy to accept documents 9 months after deadlines set and more than happy to tell us that the case would have been thrown out if we had been even a day late and then joke about it with the DWP in front of us!
Complaint letters are not only ignored but clearly ignored deliberately as I know they were delivered as I have tracking to prove this! If I was able to afford a lawyer (I’m not) or we qualified for legal aid (there is none) this would be a very different animal but as we are just working class scumbags on benefits we don’t count! Again proving we have a 2 tier justice system in this country!
It’s pointless! This isn’t going to go in my wife’s favour, we will be lucky, in my opinion if it’s heard at all!
Even the Dr and the disabilities specialist, meant to be there for her benefit, have NEVER uttered a single word! They just sit there looking embarrassed! Not a single god damn word in any of the three jokes that are passed for a tribunal hearing??? god knows why they are even there! Oh sorry… they are getting paid to sit there given it an air of legitimacy! I forgot that!
While I thank all who have given advice to us I give up!
This has been 3 years of stress and bullshit and while I thank all who have taken the trouble to read these posts and thank all those who have given advice from the bottom of my heart when you have had these experiences and you can’t even get letters of complaint sent guaranteed delivery past whoever is taking the post the whole process is pointless and if the judge won’t proceed without the DWP who break the rules and don’t even show up what’s the point of any of it? Easy… there is no point! It’s just an exercise in futility and adding more stress to my wife who has chronic fibromyalgia and myself who has mental health issues as it just makes EVERYTHING worse!
As advised I used the templates to send a letter of complaint, sent it guaranteed delivery as I did 2 of the 3 others. The tracking confirms delivery but the courts say no letters have ever been received!
Not that I’m surprised… appears to be they take delivery, see it’s some sort of complaint then just bin it!
Seems little point in doing it again as they are clearly not bothered and couldn’t give a shit if people are being treated fairly or not!
Now to the tribunal hearing.
Firstly the DWP didn’t bother to show up and secondly the judge (3rd judge now) stated she does not have jurisdiction over this case.
She said they are having issues with the DWP not showing up but said even if she was the right judge she would not have continued without them. When questioned by me as to why it had AGAIN been given to a judge that did not have jurisdiction she didn’t have any answer except to blame clerks etc.
When I asked why the previous judge was happy to accept evidence from the DWP 9 months late at 9pm the night before the hearing with nothing given to us, once again she had no answer but did say as it’s been accepted it’s accepted and no judge will override that. I asked if any of my letters of complaint sent guaranteed delivery were now in the bundle pack (she was the first judge of 3 that stated she had read it, the previous 2 said they hadn’t until 30 minutes earlier when they ‘flicked through’) but said no there was nothing that had been added except the ‘evidence’ the Dwp produced 9 months after the 1st judges deadline for requested documents! Do, adjourned AGAIN through no fault of ours!
All in all I’ve pretty much given up on this now, the courts aren’t interested, judges are quite happy to accept documents 9 months after deadlines set and more than happy to tell us that the case would have been thrown out if we had been even a day late and then joke about it with the DWP in front of us!
Complaint letters are not only ignored but clearly ignored deliberately as I know they were delivered as I have tracking to prove this! If I was able to afford a lawyer (I’m not) or we qualified for legal aid (there is none) this would be a very different animal but as we are just working class scumbags on benefits we don’t count! Again proving we have a 2 tier justice system in this country!
It’s pointless! This isn’t going to go in my wife’s favour, we will be lucky, in my opinion if it’s heard at all!
Even the Dr and the disabilities specialist, meant to be there for her benefit, have NEVER uttered a single word! They just sit there looking embarrassed! Not a single god damn word in any of the three jokes that are passed for a tribunal hearing??? god knows why they are even there! Oh sorry… they are getting paid to sit there given it an air of legitimacy! I forgot that!
While I thank all who have given advice to us I give up!
This has been 3 years of stress and bullshit and while I thank all who have taken the trouble to read these posts and thank all those who have given advice from the bottom of my heart when you have had these experiences and you can’t even get letters of complaint sent guaranteed delivery past whoever is taking the post the whole process is pointless and if the judge won’t proceed without the DWP who break the rules and don’t even show up what’s the point of any of it? Easy… there is no point! It’s just an exercise in futility and adding more stress to my wife who has chronic fibromyalgia and myself who has mental health issues as it just makes EVERYTHING worse!
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