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Burden of proof for PIP tribunal
- Spuggie
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7 hours 26 minutes ago #312990 by Spuggie
Burden of proof for PIP tribunal was created by Spuggie
Tl;dr if they make nonsense claims like “he has a job so that’s evidence that he should be able to do something regardless if he says he can’t” - is it my job to provide counter-evidence or can I just point out that their ‘evidence’ is flawed?
Hi thanks for reading and being generous with your time to help people
I am preparing for tribunal for my husband’s first time PIP appeal. I receive full PIP and ESA myself (after a very long hard fight with the help of a welfare advisor) but don’t have help this time.
Do I need to provide/find more evidence to counteract (what I believe to be) unlawful assertions of “evidence”, or is it enough to write a detailed written submission pointing out that their evidence isn’t really evidence? For example:
“Claimant works as a xxxx so probably likely to be able to xxxx to an acceptable standard”
“Claimant has not had any increases to medication, is not receiving mental health support and has not been referred to the crisis team, so that does not support claims of anxiety, depression or distress” [claimant has sought support but also knows from his wife’s experience that the local mental health trust are more of a hindrance than a help 🙄]
“Claimant is a carer to disabled wife and young son, so likely to be able to…”
“Claimant got good GCSEs so no evidence of difficulty with… “
Is the burden of proof on us to provide objective evidence that these assertions are incorrect (which may be possible but highly distressing to my husband not to mention exhausting for me) or will the tribunal accept that their ‘evidence’ isn’t strong enough to dispute the restrictions reported and evidenced in other ways?
Thanks, Rachel
Hi thanks for reading and being generous with your time to help people
I am preparing for tribunal for my husband’s first time PIP appeal. I receive full PIP and ESA myself (after a very long hard fight with the help of a welfare advisor) but don’t have help this time.
Do I need to provide/find more evidence to counteract (what I believe to be) unlawful assertions of “evidence”, or is it enough to write a detailed written submission pointing out that their evidence isn’t really evidence? For example:
“Claimant works as a xxxx so probably likely to be able to xxxx to an acceptable standard”
“Claimant has not had any increases to medication, is not receiving mental health support and has not been referred to the crisis team, so that does not support claims of anxiety, depression or distress” [claimant has sought support but also knows from his wife’s experience that the local mental health trust are more of a hindrance than a help 🙄]
“Claimant is a carer to disabled wife and young son, so likely to be able to…”
“Claimant got good GCSEs so no evidence of difficulty with… “
Is the burden of proof on us to provide objective evidence that these assertions are incorrect (which may be possible but highly distressing to my husband not to mention exhausting for me) or will the tribunal accept that their ‘evidence’ isn’t strong enough to dispute the restrictions reported and evidenced in other ways?
Thanks, Rachel
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- BIS
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4 hours 19 minutes ago #312997 by BIS
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by BIS on topic Burden of proof for PIP tribunal
Hi Spuggie
It may be semantics - but for me it's their 'reasoning' that is flawed, not their 'evidence'. For instance, I am assuming that your husband works because you haven't contradicted that point. So that's a fact. Where the assessor and decision maker got it wrong is because of assumptions made, because he works it automatically, it means he can do A, B & C. You need to take each point they have made and say where they are "incorrect", or "mistaken", or "have ommitted", or "have misunderstood" and point either to the evidence your husband gave on his form, or what he said at his assessment (if he had one) or from any medical evidence you have provided or any additional thoughts you have that contradict what they say. You don't have to come up with new 'evidence', Claimants are allowed to work and claim PIP, but it can sometimes be harder to get an award because of the bias of assessors.
The DWP are always obsessed with the amount of medication. I can imagine your husband's frustration at being told that because he does not have mental health support, that means he can't suffer from anxiety, depression or distress. What a load of utter hogwash. It is well known that there is an acute shortage of mental health services across the country and lots of patients have been discharged. Crisis teams are for a short-term crisis - not long-term mental health support. And I don't know about your health authority, but where I live, the 'support' on offer is an online course! Lots of people don't find that helpful.
The one area you may have difficulty with is your husband being a carer. Again, there are many disabled people looking after disabled partners - but the DWP always question it, and I expect it will come up at the Tribunal. Don't panic, just be ready with your answer. They will try to imply that if you are both disabled, you can't be a carer. I have two family members who are both disabled, and this question was asked. They were able to say truthfully that one gave physical care and one gave mental health support to their partner, and this was accepted. The important thing is to ensure there are no contradictions in what your husabnd struggles with and the support he gives as a carer.
Since when were GCSE's a PIP criteria? I think the Tribunal panel will skip over that.
So the important thing is to be able to argue where they are wrong. Only say something is 'unlawful' if you know that it is. I'm not saying that they haven't acted unlawfully, but I'd generally let the panel decide. Often, the DWP have given an 'opinion', one that the claimant vehemently disagrees with.
BIS
It may be semantics - but for me it's their 'reasoning' that is flawed, not their 'evidence'. For instance, I am assuming that your husband works because you haven't contradicted that point. So that's a fact. Where the assessor and decision maker got it wrong is because of assumptions made, because he works it automatically, it means he can do A, B & C. You need to take each point they have made and say where they are "incorrect", or "mistaken", or "have ommitted", or "have misunderstood" and point either to the evidence your husband gave on his form, or what he said at his assessment (if he had one) or from any medical evidence you have provided or any additional thoughts you have that contradict what they say. You don't have to come up with new 'evidence', Claimants are allowed to work and claim PIP, but it can sometimes be harder to get an award because of the bias of assessors.
The DWP are always obsessed with the amount of medication. I can imagine your husband's frustration at being told that because he does not have mental health support, that means he can't suffer from anxiety, depression or distress. What a load of utter hogwash. It is well known that there is an acute shortage of mental health services across the country and lots of patients have been discharged. Crisis teams are for a short-term crisis - not long-term mental health support. And I don't know about your health authority, but where I live, the 'support' on offer is an online course! Lots of people don't find that helpful.
The one area you may have difficulty with is your husband being a carer. Again, there are many disabled people looking after disabled partners - but the DWP always question it, and I expect it will come up at the Tribunal. Don't panic, just be ready with your answer. They will try to imply that if you are both disabled, you can't be a carer. I have two family members who are both disabled, and this question was asked. They were able to say truthfully that one gave physical care and one gave mental health support to their partner, and this was accepted. The important thing is to ensure there are no contradictions in what your husabnd struggles with and the support he gives as a carer.
Since when were GCSE's a PIP criteria? I think the Tribunal panel will skip over that.
So the important thing is to be able to argue where they are wrong. Only say something is 'unlawful' if you know that it is. I'm not saying that they haven't acted unlawfully, but I'd generally let the panel decide. Often, the DWP have given an 'opinion', one that the claimant vehemently disagrees with.
BIS
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
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