Labour were forced to abandon the PIP four point rule in the final hour of today’s debate, in order to save the Universal Credit and Personal Independence Payment Bill.

In the end, the bill passed its second reading with a majority of 75, with 335 voting in favour and 260 against.  49 Labour MPs rebelled and voted against the bill.  You can see a full list of the votes here

This means that the 4-point PIP rule is effectively dead after Labour made its biggest concession yet. 

Little more than an hour before today’s debate ended and voting began, Timms told the House: 

"I can announce that we are going to remove the clause five from the bill at committee, that we will move straight to the wider review, sometimes referred to as the Timms review, and only make changes to Pip eligibility, activities and descriptors following that review."

Clause 5 is the 4-point rule.

It will no longer appear in the bill when amendments are made next week.

This means that the Universal Credit and Personal Independence Payment Bill no longer has anything to do with Personal Independence Payment.

The main purpose of the bill is now to take money from future recipients of the UC health element, though current claimants will not be affected, and to introduce the severe conditions criteria.

The cut to the UC health element, in itself, should have been enough for MPs to vote the bill down, but it was an issue that received much less attention.

The Timms review will now decide the future of PIP.  And if, as Labour have promised, the review is genuinely coproduced with disabled people there is very little chance of the 4-point rule ever happening. 

There is undoubtedly still danger ahead, however.  Timms was asked twice if the changes to PIP made by the review would be put into primary or secondary legislation, Timms said that would depend on the result of the review.

But, if the government chooses to put any changes in secondary legislation, MPs would not be able to amend them and would not be given a vote on them, unless via arcane parliamentary procedure.  This may be a battleground for the third reading next week.

Nonetheless, as things stand, an enormous amount of distress has been caused to millions of disabled claimants, only to end up with a bill that has entirely abandoned its primary aim.

For Timms, Kendall and Reeves, however brave a face they put on it, today has been an enormous humiliation.  For campaigners, facing a government with a massive majority and an extraordinary degree of arrogance, it has been a remarkable – though by no means total - victory.

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  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 1 days ago
    They will all which ever party whenever, have blood on their hands. But hey, that will save em a few quid! 🤬
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    · 1 days ago
    I look forward to some clarification as to what happened, what this all means. I'd really like to be able to sleep at night, even just for a while. 
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    · 1 days ago
    On the plus side I'm very grateful to the Labour MP's who stood up for us throughout. That was the good side of the Labour Party. 

    Callous Liz and Calamity Reeves could have avoided all this, I have no trust in them or the PM for their shambolic, selfish, crude attempts over this bill. I still think they won't get their UC cut backs past the courts on human rights grounds. 

    However bad a week the Labour Party think they've had re this bill it's nothing compared to how bad thousands of disabled and vulnerable people have been feeling over the past few months. 




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    · 1 days ago
    So does this mean after the timms review only new claimants are affected? Or will it affect existing pip claiments as well.
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      · 1 days ago
      @Chris Many pip claims are reviewed every 2, 3 or 4 years for some reason they think people with long term health conditions are going to miraculously get better. Usually as people age they get worse. So unless you have been given a lifetime award you will be  reviewed, at review you will be classed no doubt as a new claim. 
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    · 1 days ago
    They are no longer accountable to their electorate IMO, very dark times  ahead
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    · 1 days ago
    The confusion, disorganisation and utter chaos of this bill actually reminded me of the general PIP application process.  It’s as if the painful PIP assessment had somehow mutated and was channeling itself into the House of Commons.
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 1 days ago
    Could the bill still be voted down at third reading? And is it being presented as a money bill? 
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      · 1 days ago
      @Nat Sorry but I think it's highly unlikely.
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    · 1 days ago
    It is great that the PIP 4 points thing is off the agenda, but I am concerned about the LCWRA reduction coming. I feel there has been so much focus on the PIP 4 point thing, that the LCWRA reduction has slipped through due to being under the radar.
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    · 1 days ago
    New pip will be way worse to get from Timms this is bad news to come in the future 
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    · 1 days ago
    So people on the UC LCWRA group are ok for now?
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      · 1 days ago
      @Anna C That's what I'd like to know too.
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      · 1 days ago
      @Anna C The main purpose of the bill is now to take money from future recipients of the UC health element, though current claimants will not be affected, and to introduce the severe conditions criteria.

      Trust this site as it's not usually wrong! 
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    · 1 days ago
    From Dan hodges:

    This is how governments die. Every Labour MP, Minister and Cabinet Minister knows the welfare bill is no longer fit for purpose. But they’re going to blindly force it through anyway. Then spend the rest of the parliament saying to each other “why did we do that”.
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    · 1 days ago
    I've thought all along that those on uc lcwra without pip needed to be defended and protected too. The thought of anyone being forced to apply for jobs and do placements and face sanctions when it reality they couldn't actually do a job and would likely be harmed by both that and not having enough money for basics. 

    Honestly I've spent the last months feeling like I was waiting to find out if I'd get a life sentence or the death penalty for the crime of being disabled. I think there may have already been deaths, I was close to being one of them. 
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 1 days ago
    Don't know what the big hang up is with the 4 point rule. Assessors will still lie, whether it's 4 points , 40 points or 400 points. Makes no difference, they will still fabricate things. That's what really needs addressing imo.
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 1 days ago
    I totally get the feeling people have that this was a defeat for all of us and that the fight is over and we've lost.

    Far from it, actually.

    Today was not the win we all wanted, but it was ultimately a win nonetheless as the bill has fallen into such disarray with so many backtracking and watered-down announcements (including DURING the debate as B&W explains here). Now more people - including the Tories, in addition to Labour rebels and other MP's across all parties - are demanding the bill is in such a shambles that it should be scrapped and started again with disability groups input in mind.

    Essentially, this whole situation has shown that this bill is not workable, impractical, doesn't do what originally intended, exposing the bill as having massive holes and weaknesses. At this point, many MP's now feel the bill is worthless and pointless. I think the reduction in the rebellion was merely party-politics at play at the last minute, with the concession today as more a scapegoat than the real reason. The fight isn't over, and this has caused so much division within Labour and outside it that they will never be able to get away with ramming it through as-is. I actually picture this bill getting shelved, deemed unworthy by the Lords who will make it clear the bill is unworkable and has no electoral mandate, meaning it could ping-pong back and forth for a while until either Labour gives up on it, or the ping-pongs actually clear up and improve on the bill in a workable way, which seems less likely.
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    · 1 days ago
    "and only make changes to Pip eligibility, activities and descriptors following that review."
    Well, this is worrying. 
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    · 1 days ago
    By winning more concessions, we have lost the previous ones.  The four point rule's future will be reliant on Timms's review and recommendations.  It might happen, it might not.  

    But now we have essentially lost the promise to current claimants that their future assessments will be under the old rules. That was added under section 5, and now section 5 has gone completely. 

    So, basically, through MPs (and us)  asking for more, we have actually got less.   As i said at the weekend, we should have parked the win from Friday's concessions and got ready for a new battle.  Now we have absolutely no promises for the future, and will be reliant on the review of Timms, a snake that we can't trust at all, and MPs might not even get a say on the implementation of his recommendations.   Wonderful.
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      · 1 days ago
      @Diceman24 It's not "I'm alright Jack" when you're talking of saving 375,000 people.  
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      · 1 days ago
      @Yorry That is not true.  The DWP confirmed on Monday that would not be the case.
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      · 1 days ago
      @Anon Think you may be underestimating how quickly timms review and subsequent reforms will be fast tracked now.

      I doubt we’ll have the luxury of no pip assessment/review tightening of criteria till 2027, let alone 2029

      Winter is still coming………and ministers may just use secondary legislation next time to sneak under those pesky rebels
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 1 days ago
      @Slb You're looking at it through a gratuitously negative lens. Current claimants will now be reassessed under current rules until at least some time in 2027. The Timms review outcome, co-produced with disabled peoples' representatives, is unlikely to be as bad as the original proposals. Therefore the changes applied from 2027 to 2029 might not be that bad. But from 2029 onwards it's going to be really bad. Future LCWRA claimants from Nov 2026 onwards only receiving half of the current amount is bad, but they can still claim PIP without the 4 point rule. The worse case scenario was avoided, and disabled people have gained massive support among MPs who defended us to get the 4 point rule scrapped. It's therefore not to be seen as a negative outcome.
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 1 days ago
      @Slb When a person has a review which can be anywhere from 1-3 years for a person on the Standard rate then that would have classed as renewing a claim & the 4 point rule would have kicked in. The only people who were safe are the people who get 8 points on a question for daily living. The concession that old claimants don't have the 4 point rule was a SCAM.
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    · 1 days ago
    "The main purpose of the bill is now to take money from future recipients of the UC health element, though current claimants will not be affected,"

    How about those due to be transitioned from ESA income support group to UC this year?
     
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    · 1 days ago
    The debate seemed so thoughtful and passionate and reasoned I thought there could be no way the bill would go through.  Like many others I feel confused and very disappointed.  Have they just kicked the ball down the road until after the Timms review to then have us all reviewed under the new system?  What about all the new claimants?  It's all about politics not people.  Anyway perhaps more amendments will take place in the next week or it could get voted out at it's third reading. We can but hope (those who are unhappy with the bill obviously).  Feeling low spirited but tomorrow is another day!
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 1 days ago
      @James Remember the last ‘consultations’ weren’t really consultations at all and Timms has already said that ultimately he has the final word on the decisions made . I’m concerned this will just be another manipulative exercise where he overrules it all in the end anyway 
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      · 1 days ago
      @CaroA There is no room for doom and gloom. The government has been forced into a humiliating climb down. This is a big victory against a government with a massive majority. 
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      · 1 days ago
      @CaroA The Timms review will have to consult with disability groups before it is published. If it opens a can of worms again then the next rebellion will bring the government down. For now we all have a respite and the dreaded 4 point rule and the link to PIP are now gone. If the review goes outside the parameters of this bill then it will have to be presented again as a new bill so either way the government will have a lot of its own mps breathing down their necks
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 1 days ago
      @CaroA I agree - I was so impressed by many of the speeches. At least it's something - good to know that there are some MPs that care.
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    · 1 days ago
    Thank you for all the updates.  They have been incredibly helpful. 
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    · 1 days ago
    now we have to ask the question, what happens to leggacy esa to uc claiments that are not yet migrated to uc. which rules will they come under? new claims to UC, so lose transitional protections, or seen as existing claiments.
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      · 1 days ago
      @shadowpony Are we all not meant to be migrated over by April next yr at latest? Or did I get that wrong? Someone said Dec this year then I heard April  2026.
      If so surely we should miss any upcoming changes,if they occur. Even if we do, its going to be horrific for those who come after. 
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 1 days ago
      @shadowpony I agree shadowpony, im in the same predicament & have until August to migrate to Universal Credit. Im now not sure if I get transitional protection. Do these changes come into force immediately or from November 2026? I don't think the government know either. More worrying ahead!
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 1 days ago
      @shadowpony please, do not even think that!   

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