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Speaking at ATOS F2F
- MariW
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10 years 3 months ago - 10 years 3 months ago #116165 by MariW
Speaking at ATOS F2F was created by MariW
I have assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that claimants required to attend a face-to-face assessment are also required to participate in the procedure by responding to the HCP’s questions. What happens when a claimant cannot speak or has impaired speech?
I am not thinking of claimants for whom ATOS will provide a signer. The specific claimant I have in mind has a chronic vocal tic disorder (non-TD). She seldom communicates with any degree of fluency and her speech deteriorates under stress. My query is equally applicable to claimants with speech impairments due to strokes, neurological disorders such as PD, the long-term affects of an oral cancer, or social anxieties.
The tic disorder is related to the question 6 descriptor. It will also be mentioned iwhen the section to do with problems attending a face-to-face WCA is filled in. But what if the claimant is sent for? She can take along a copy of the ESA 50, which includes medical reports, and a supportive former colleague who helps her with day-today tasks that require speaking. Would it be acceptable if the claimant did not attempt voluntary speech?
Thanks,
MW
I am not thinking of claimants for whom ATOS will provide a signer. The specific claimant I have in mind has a chronic vocal tic disorder (non-TD). She seldom communicates with any degree of fluency and her speech deteriorates under stress. My query is equally applicable to claimants with speech impairments due to strokes, neurological disorders such as PD, the long-term affects of an oral cancer, or social anxieties.
The tic disorder is related to the question 6 descriptor. It will also be mentioned iwhen the section to do with problems attending a face-to-face WCA is filled in. But what if the claimant is sent for? She can take along a copy of the ESA 50, which includes medical reports, and a supportive former colleague who helps her with day-today tasks that require speaking. Would it be acceptable if the claimant did not attempt voluntary speech?
Thanks,
MW
Last edit: 10 years 3 months ago by slugsta.
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10 years 3 months ago #116167 by slugsta
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Replied by slugsta on topic Speaking at ATOS F2F
Hi MD,
I am assuming that, in your scenario, the claimant does not use assistive voice technology? In this kind of situation I would think the expectation would be that the claimant takes someone along with them to answer questions on their behalf, or writes down their answers. I would also expect that the claimant would be required to attempt to speak, in order to show that this is not intelligiable (rather than the claimant simply chosing not to speak).
Hopefully, one of my fellow mod's might be able to answer with rather more certantly than me!
I am assuming that, in your scenario, the claimant does not use assistive voice technology? In this kind of situation I would think the expectation would be that the claimant takes someone along with them to answer questions on their behalf, or writes down their answers. I would also expect that the claimant would be required to attempt to speak, in order to show that this is not intelligiable (rather than the claimant simply chosing not to speak).
Hopefully, one of my fellow mod's might be able to answer with rather more certantly than me!
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
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10 years 3 months ago #116175 by Puccalove
Replied by Puccalove on topic Speaking at ATOS F2F
Difficulty speaking should not be treated as a refusal to answer questions and should in fact work in favour of entitlement.
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10 years 3 months ago #116177 by Gordon
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Replied by Gordon on topic Speaking at ATOS F2F
MariW
I agree with Mrs H, the only thing I would add is that Descriptor 6 deals with "speaking, writing, typing, or other means which are normally, or could reasonably be, used, unaided by another person", so your friend will not score points for the inability to speak if they can write a simple message.
Gordon
I agree with Mrs H, the only thing I would add is that Descriptor 6 deals with "speaking, writing, typing, or other means which are normally, or could reasonably be, used, unaided by another person", so your friend will not score points for the inability to speak if they can write a simple message.
Gordon
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10 years 3 months ago - 10 years 3 months ago #116208 by MariW
Replied by MariW on topic Speaking at ATOS F2F
Hi Mrs HB, Puccalove, and Gordon,
The claimant could not use speech recognition software because of the involuntary vocal tics. I don’t know whether she has explored text-speech software but I’ve had a go without success. Even a claimant without severe manual disability would, I suspect, have to be very proficient to get through a lengthy series of medical questions.
An HCP would realise the extent of the claimant’s problem irrespective of whether she chose to speak or not because of the tics, which are often quite rapid.
To pick up Puccalove’s point, would greater weight being given to paper evidence be considered a reasonable adjustment for this claimant and others with impaired speech as a result of a diverse range of physical or mental health issues?
Before I read Gordon’s addition I had hoped that if the section regarding problems attending a F2F were completed in detail it might initiate a decision without a medical. However, Gordon’s point about the question 6 descriptor. The claimant has some motor dysfunction but it is not particularly disabling from what I’m told. It strikes me that the claimant is in a similar position to the member with uncontrolled epilepsy who posted a couple of days ago. Perhaps points could be picked up elsewhere but I don’t think they would be enough. Just to clarify matters, Gordon, is it the case that a claimants will score 0 points unless her/she cannot performs any of the activities to do with communication?
I cannot imagine what form of employment or WRA the claimant could undertake. Her tics would prevent not only her own activity but also that of co-workers. She worked in a small garden centre in a quiet rural area after onset of the tic disorder but the symtoms increased and the situation became impossible for employers and employee alike. Could Regulation 35 come into play?
Thanks,
MW
The claimant could not use speech recognition software because of the involuntary vocal tics. I don’t know whether she has explored text-speech software but I’ve had a go without success. Even a claimant without severe manual disability would, I suspect, have to be very proficient to get through a lengthy series of medical questions.
An HCP would realise the extent of the claimant’s problem irrespective of whether she chose to speak or not because of the tics, which are often quite rapid.
To pick up Puccalove’s point, would greater weight being given to paper evidence be considered a reasonable adjustment for this claimant and others with impaired speech as a result of a diverse range of physical or mental health issues?
Before I read Gordon’s addition I had hoped that if the section regarding problems attending a F2F were completed in detail it might initiate a decision without a medical. However, Gordon’s point about the question 6 descriptor. The claimant has some motor dysfunction but it is not particularly disabling from what I’m told. It strikes me that the claimant is in a similar position to the member with uncontrolled epilepsy who posted a couple of days ago. Perhaps points could be picked up elsewhere but I don’t think they would be enough. Just to clarify matters, Gordon, is it the case that a claimants will score 0 points unless her/she cannot performs any of the activities to do with communication?
I cannot imagine what form of employment or WRA the claimant could undertake. Her tics would prevent not only her own activity but also that of co-workers. She worked in a small garden centre in a quiet rural area after onset of the tic disorder but the symtoms increased and the situation became impossible for employers and employee alike. Could Regulation 35 come into play?
Thanks,
MW
Last edit: 10 years 3 months ago by Gordon.
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10 years 3 months ago #116217 by Gordon
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Replied by Gordon on topic Speaking at ATOS F2F
MariW
ATOS must have some experience of dealing with claimants unable to speak or unable to do so in an intelligible manner, many deaf people have problems in this area and there are numerous other conditions, cancer of the throat springs to mind, which would effect a claimants ability to speak.
I think the first thing is to make sure that ATOS are aware that your friends ability is at best severely limited and at worst, absent, put the onus on them to provide suitable facilities, write a letter to ATOS, copy to the DWP, explaining their limitations in regard to participating in the interview, if nothing else this will provide cover for the "not participating" issue.
I think it is essential that they have someone at the interview who knows them well enough to speak on their behalf.
With regard to question 6, if the claimant has no problems with writing or typing a simple message then I think it unlikely that they will score points for this descriptor, the guidance is quite clear that all methods of communication must be considered and it is the absence of any that scores points.
The Exceptional Circumstances may be a possibility, Regs 29 and 35 may apply, however, I think there will still be difficulties; first there must be "some specific disease or bodily or mental disablement" and this "disease or bodily or mental disablement" must be the reason that that there is a risk to the "substantial risk to the mental or physical health" of the claimant or others, if the EC's were not applied. So there vocal tic must be seen as a substantial risk to their physical or mental health.
Reg.29 applies to their ability to work, however, the DWP can take into account reasonable adjustments that an employer might make,. Reg.35 applies to Work Related Activity, so you would need to show that their attending a course, as an example, would present a risk
I agree that it is difficult to conceive of any job that the claimant could do with success, but unfortunately ESA, despite the Governments statements to the contrary, does not directly test this.
Gordon
ATOS must have some experience of dealing with claimants unable to speak or unable to do so in an intelligible manner, many deaf people have problems in this area and there are numerous other conditions, cancer of the throat springs to mind, which would effect a claimants ability to speak.
I think the first thing is to make sure that ATOS are aware that your friends ability is at best severely limited and at worst, absent, put the onus on them to provide suitable facilities, write a letter to ATOS, copy to the DWP, explaining their limitations in regard to participating in the interview, if nothing else this will provide cover for the "not participating" issue.
I think it is essential that they have someone at the interview who knows them well enough to speak on their behalf.
With regard to question 6, if the claimant has no problems with writing or typing a simple message then I think it unlikely that they will score points for this descriptor, the guidance is quite clear that all methods of communication must be considered and it is the absence of any that scores points.
The Exceptional Circumstances may be a possibility, Regs 29 and 35 may apply, however, I think there will still be difficulties; first there must be "some specific disease or bodily or mental disablement" and this "disease or bodily or mental disablement" must be the reason that that there is a risk to the "substantial risk to the mental or physical health" of the claimant or others, if the EC's were not applied. So there vocal tic must be seen as a substantial risk to their physical or mental health.
Reg.29 applies to their ability to work, however, the DWP can take into account reasonable adjustments that an employer might make,. Reg.35 applies to Work Related Activity, so you would need to show that their attending a course, as an example, would present a risk
I agree that it is difficult to conceive of any job that the claimant could do with success, but unfortunately ESA, despite the Governments statements to the contrary, does not directly test this.
Gordon
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