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Manual Dexterity - turn pages with one hand?
- AKM
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9 years 10 months ago #122555 by AKM
Manual Dexterity - turn pages with one hand? was created by AKM
Hi all.
I'm looking for a bit of advice regarding ESA if possible. I was moved over to it last year from long term IB and after submitting the form I was placed in the WRAG. I have been multiple times to a work interview and each time the interviewer's said I should have been in the support group. I did try to appeal but it never went very far as I wasn't sure what grounds I could appeal on and the thought of a tribunal was (is) intimidating as I have anxiety and depression as well as my physical health issues.
I now think after reading the B&W guide that I have filled the form wrong and that I meet the descriptor for manual dexterity (cannot turn the pages of a book with either hand). Is the descriptor asking if the pages can be turned single-handedly? The guide doesn't clarify this.
My condition has left me with (aside from other things) permanent wrist-drop and no grip in both my hands (neuropathy has left my fingers immobile and "clawed" - I can slightly twitch my middle fingers). I can turn the pages of a book using both hands together (trapping a wodge of paper between my hands and letting gravity get me to the right page) but it takes a lot of effort to co-ordinate. Reading the guide it says tasks should be repeatable, non-fatiguing, reliably done in a timely manner, etc and I can't do that. I'm slow, innacurate and it wears me out doing it (depending on the book - phone directories are the worst), and using one hand (either of them as they are both affected) it's not possible. At the time I thought if I can do it once then I qualify as being capable so I stated I can do it using both hands without expanding that it's difficult and slow. What would be the best thing to do now? My
current ESA (contributions based) is going to end mid August.
Thanks for any input.
I'm looking for a bit of advice regarding ESA if possible. I was moved over to it last year from long term IB and after submitting the form I was placed in the WRAG. I have been multiple times to a work interview and each time the interviewer's said I should have been in the support group. I did try to appeal but it never went very far as I wasn't sure what grounds I could appeal on and the thought of a tribunal was (is) intimidating as I have anxiety and depression as well as my physical health issues.
I now think after reading the B&W guide that I have filled the form wrong and that I meet the descriptor for manual dexterity (cannot turn the pages of a book with either hand). Is the descriptor asking if the pages can be turned single-handedly? The guide doesn't clarify this.
My condition has left me with (aside from other things) permanent wrist-drop and no grip in both my hands (neuropathy has left my fingers immobile and "clawed" - I can slightly twitch my middle fingers). I can turn the pages of a book using both hands together (trapping a wodge of paper between my hands and letting gravity get me to the right page) but it takes a lot of effort to co-ordinate. Reading the guide it says tasks should be repeatable, non-fatiguing, reliably done in a timely manner, etc and I can't do that. I'm slow, innacurate and it wears me out doing it (depending on the book - phone directories are the worst), and using one hand (either of them as they are both affected) it's not possible. At the time I thought if I can do it once then I qualify as being capable so I stated I can do it using both hands without expanding that it's difficult and slow. What would be the best thing to do now? My
current ESA (contributions based) is going to end mid August.
Thanks for any input.
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- Gordon
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9 years 10 months ago #122560 by Gordon
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by Gordon on topic Manual Dexterity - turn pages with one hand?
AKM
Welcome to the forum.
As I am sure you know the Descriptor states
There is no clarification of the word "either" but where this occurs the standard English definition should be used, on this basis either should be taken to mean the right hand or the left hand but not both hands unless specifically stated.
You say you have appealed the Decision, how far did it go? If you had a Tribunal hearing and they found against you then you cannot pursue this matter further unless the hearing was within the last month and you can show there was an Error in the proceedings.
If your "appeal" merely resulted in the DWP carrying out a Reconsideration, then you still have the option of appealing although you will need to explain why you are doing so late.
Have a look at our ESA Appeals guide for more details of the process.
If you have any further questions then please reply to this post and we will do our best to help.
Gordon
Welcome to the forum.
As I am sure you know the Descriptor states
5. Manual dexterity.
Cannot either:
(a) press a button, such as a telephone keypad or;
(b) turn the pages of a book
with either hand.
There is no clarification of the word "either" but where this occurs the standard English definition should be used, on this basis either should be taken to mean the right hand or the left hand but not both hands unless specifically stated.
You say you have appealed the Decision, how far did it go? If you had a Tribunal hearing and they found against you then you cannot pursue this matter further unless the hearing was within the last month and you can show there was an Error in the proceedings.
If your "appeal" merely resulted in the DWP carrying out a Reconsideration, then you still have the option of appealing although you will need to explain why you are doing so late.
Have a look at our ESA Appeals guide for more details of the process.
If you have any further questions then please reply to this post and we will do our best to help.
Gordon
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
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- Jim Allison BSc, Inst LE, MBIM; MA (Consumer Protection & Social Welfare Law)
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9 years 10 months ago #122561 by Jim Allison BSc, Inst LE, MBIM; MA (Consumer Protection & Social Welfare Law)
So you didn't really appeal then ? I don't deal with ESA, but DLA/PIP. But based on Gordon's post on manual dexterity, I'm not sure what your grounds for appeal would be Did you request a reconsideration, if so what was the outcome and reasons.
PLEASE READ THE SPOTLIGHTS AREA OF THE FORUM REGULARLY, OTHERWISE YOU MAY MISS OUT ON IMPORTANT INFORMATION. Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by Jim Allison BSc, Inst LE, MBIM; MA (Consumer Protection & Social Welfare Law) on topic Manual Dexterity - turn pages with one hand?
I did try to appeal but it never went very far as I wasn't sure what grounds I could appeal on and the thought of a tribunal was (is) intimidating as I have anxiety and depression as well as my physical health issues.
So you didn't really appeal then ? I don't deal with ESA, but DLA/PIP. But based on Gordon's post on manual dexterity, I'm not sure what your grounds for appeal would be Did you request a reconsideration, if so what was the outcome and reasons.
PLEASE READ THE SPOTLIGHTS AREA OF THE FORUM REGULARLY, OTHERWISE YOU MAY MISS OUT ON IMPORTANT INFORMATION. Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
The following user(s) said Thank You: AKM
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- AKM
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9 years 10 months ago #122563 by AKM
Replied by AKM on topic Manual Dexterity - turn pages with one hand?
Thank you for replying Gordon.
It was more an attempt to appeal, I didn't get past writing a letter asking for a reconsideration, the response to which was that the decision stood and I was to remain in the WRAG.
I think I have grounds for an appeal based on the descriptor referring to single-handed page turning. I wonder if ignorance and despondence is an acceptable reason for appealing late.
I'll take a look at the appeals guide.
It was more an attempt to appeal, I didn't get past writing a letter asking for a reconsideration, the response to which was that the decision stood and I was to remain in the WRAG.
I think I have grounds for an appeal based on the descriptor referring to single-handed page turning. I wonder if ignorance and despondence is an acceptable reason for appealing late.
I'll take a look at the appeals guide.
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- Gordon
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9 years 10 months ago #122564 by Gordon
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by Gordon on topic Manual Dexterity - turn pages with one hand?
AKM
You should be able to make a Late appeal on the basis that you misunderstood the Descriptor and therefore did not complete the ESA50 fully.
Your difficulty will be that as you appear to have made no or limited comment on your dexterity problems on the ESA50 is showing that you were suffering from this problem at the time that you were assessed, you will likely need medical evidence to support this claim that must pre-date the assessment.
If the evidence is significant it may be possible to overturn the Decision at the Reconsideration stage but if not then you will have to wait until your appeal is heard, in the interim, your ESA(CB) will still cease in August, have you checked whether you would be eligible for ESA(IR).
Eligibility for ESA(IR) is dependant on your household income, assets and savings and any hours that a partner works.
Asset rule for ESA(IR)
24 hour work rule for ESA(IR)
Gordon
You should be able to make a Late appeal on the basis that you misunderstood the Descriptor and therefore did not complete the ESA50 fully.
Your difficulty will be that as you appear to have made no or limited comment on your dexterity problems on the ESA50 is showing that you were suffering from this problem at the time that you were assessed, you will likely need medical evidence to support this claim that must pre-date the assessment.
If the evidence is significant it may be possible to overturn the Decision at the Reconsideration stage but if not then you will have to wait until your appeal is heard, in the interim, your ESA(CB) will still cease in August, have you checked whether you would be eligible for ESA(IR).
Eligibility for ESA(IR) is dependant on your household income, assets and savings and any hours that a partner works.
Asset rule for ESA(IR)
24 hour work rule for ESA(IR)
Gordon
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
The following user(s) said Thank You: Jim Allison BSc, Inst LE, MBIM; MA (Consumer Protection & Social Welfare Law), AKM
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- AKM
- Topic Author
9 years 10 months ago #122570 by AKM
Replied by AKM on topic Manual Dexterity - turn pages with one hand?
I went into a fair bit of detail about my condition in the first section of the ESA50, including info about my hands and wrists. I don't have any medical evidence as I've not had a specialist doctor since I was 16 (years and years ago). If I do appeal would I need to use the old GL24 as the decision was made before October?
I think I'd be eligible for IR ESA, I did get a letter a few days back about that.
I think I'd be eligible for IR ESA, I did get a letter a few days back about that.
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