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PIP Mobility - So let's get this right
- Arrods
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9 years 7 months ago - 9 years 7 months ago #125178 by Arrods
PIP Mobility - So let's get this right was created by Arrods
Partner has long-term serious injury (badly broken femur). She has 0 points for Daily Living (which we'll be appealing to the Tribunal). Under Mobility, she has 10 points for Moving Around and 0 points for Going Out. She uses crutches/walking frame. I drive her everywhere and I have to assist her when using public transport, in view of the risk of her falling/need to negotiate high steps etc.
Told by DWP that Going Out is only about cognitive ability - and that physical restrictions are not considered in this activity but in Moving About. Is that so? Moving About seems to be only about walking, not travelling on public transport etc. Surely the need for physical assistance is covered by Going Out Descriptor f. The BW guidance seems to support our view I.e Going Out is ".... also about your ability to actually undertake a journey".
We're proposing to appeal against refusal of the Daily Living component anyway. We're prepared to to argue the case as to why she needs physical assistance when Going Out but is there any point if the DWP are saying it's irrelevant? If so, we cannot understand why there appears to be no help for anyone (not just my partner) if they are physically unable, without help, to Go Out.
Our appealing is a no-risk strategy as regards her existing Moving Around component, as this will probably have ceased ahead of the Tribunal hearing. Grateful for any comments. We have 2 weeks left to lodge our appeal.
Told by DWP that Going Out is only about cognitive ability - and that physical restrictions are not considered in this activity but in Moving About. Is that so? Moving About seems to be only about walking, not travelling on public transport etc. Surely the need for physical assistance is covered by Going Out Descriptor f. The BW guidance seems to support our view I.e Going Out is ".... also about your ability to actually undertake a journey".
We're proposing to appeal against refusal of the Daily Living component anyway. We're prepared to to argue the case as to why she needs physical assistance when Going Out but is there any point if the DWP are saying it's irrelevant? If so, we cannot understand why there appears to be no help for anyone (not just my partner) if they are physically unable, without help, to Go Out.
Our appealing is a no-risk strategy as regards her existing Moving Around component, as this will probably have ceased ahead of the Tribunal hearing. Grateful for any comments. We have 2 weeks left to lodge our appeal.
Last edit: 9 years 7 months ago by bro58. Reason: Tick.
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- Gordon
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9 years 7 months ago #125182 by Gordon
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by Gordon on topic PIP Mobility - So let's get this right
Arrods
Welcome to the forum, you might want to have a look at the following FAQ which explain where everything is
Welcome to Benefits and Work
I don't think it is a black and white as you have been told by the DWP, for example I would expect a blind claimant to score points for the Going Out Descriptor, which is clearly not a cognitive problem, however, the Descriptor as a whole is orientated towards claimants who cannot go out because of mental health issues. If your partners problems are physical only and they are not blind, then I think it very unlikely that they will score points for this Descriptor.
With regard to the Moving Around Descriptor, all walking must be done Reliably
• Safely – in a fashion that is unlikely to cause harm to themselves or to another person.
• To a necessary and appropriate standard – given the nature of the activity.
• Repeatedly – as often as is reasonably required.
• In a timely manner – in a reasonable time period.
if you can argue that they cannot reliably walk more 20m then they should score the 12 points need for an Enhanced award, she is currently viewed as being able to walk 20-50m.
If you have not already done so, you should have a look at our PIP Claim guide and PIP MR & Appeal guide, which are both on the following link.
www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/help-for-claimants/pip
Gordon
Welcome to the forum, you might want to have a look at the following FAQ which explain where everything is
Welcome to Benefits and Work
I don't think it is a black and white as you have been told by the DWP, for example I would expect a blind claimant to score points for the Going Out Descriptor, which is clearly not a cognitive problem, however, the Descriptor as a whole is orientated towards claimants who cannot go out because of mental health issues. If your partners problems are physical only and they are not blind, then I think it very unlikely that they will score points for this Descriptor.
With regard to the Moving Around Descriptor, all walking must be done Reliably
• Safely – in a fashion that is unlikely to cause harm to themselves or to another person.
• To a necessary and appropriate standard – given the nature of the activity.
• Repeatedly – as often as is reasonably required.
• In a timely manner – in a reasonable time period.
if you can argue that they cannot reliably walk more 20m then they should score the 12 points need for an Enhanced award, she is currently viewed as being able to walk 20-50m.
If you have not already done so, you should have a look at our PIP Claim guide and PIP MR & Appeal guide, which are both on the following link.
www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/help-for-claimants/pip
Gordon
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- Arrods
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9 years 7 months ago #125186 by Arrods
Replied by Arrods on topic PIP Mobility - So let's get this right
Thanks Gordon. Purely for the purposes of the Going Out element, I have to say I'm not sure there is a practical difference between a blind person and someone with a serious mobility issue - both need assistance to travel.
I guess though the key is the difference between planning and following a journey on the one hand and undertaking it on the other. It seems to me it is a question of reading between the lines as to how to interpret the Regulations. It's said the focus of Going Out is on the cognitive aspects - but I don't think it's that explicit on reading the Regulations.
It just seems to me that the legislators have left a gap which leaves many people in a position whereby they cannot go out without assistance and are not entitled to a benefit that is supposed to help with their 'personal independence'. Rant over!
P.S. Anyone on this forum had any practical experience of this scenario?
I guess though the key is the difference between planning and following a journey on the one hand and undertaking it on the other. It seems to me it is a question of reading between the lines as to how to interpret the Regulations. It's said the focus of Going Out is on the cognitive aspects - but I don't think it's that explicit on reading the Regulations.
It just seems to me that the legislators have left a gap which leaves many people in a position whereby they cannot go out without assistance and are not entitled to a benefit that is supposed to help with their 'personal independence'. Rant over!
P.S. Anyone on this forum had any practical experience of this scenario?
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- Gordon
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9 years 7 months ago #125190 by Gordon
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by Gordon on topic PIP Mobility - So let's get this right
Arrods
I wouldn't disagree with you in regard to Descriptor F, unfortunately the DWP guidance sets a different scenario, so I do not think that you will get this overturned by a Mandatory Reconsideration, it is possible that a Tribunal panel will take a different view, they are not as constrained as the assessor and the DWP by the guidance, but that could take some time with no guarantee.
From a slightly wider viewpoint there will be a belief that those who are physically constrained from walking will score highly in the Moving Around Descriptor as your partner did (10 points).
You only need 12 points for an Enhanced award, whether this is achieved by adding 2 points or 10 does not matter as long as it is one or the other.
Gordon
I wouldn't disagree with you in regard to Descriptor F, unfortunately the DWP guidance sets a different scenario, so I do not think that you will get this overturned by a Mandatory Reconsideration, it is possible that a Tribunal panel will take a different view, they are not as constrained as the assessor and the DWP by the guidance, but that could take some time with no guarantee.
From a slightly wider viewpoint there will be a belief that those who are physically constrained from walking will score highly in the Moving Around Descriptor as your partner did (10 points).
You only need 12 points for an Enhanced award, whether this is achieved by adding 2 points or 10 does not matter as long as it is one or the other.
Gordon
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- furrypusscat
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9 years 7 months ago - 9 years 7 months ago #125204 by furrypusscat
Replied by furrypusscat on topic PIP Mobility - So let's get this right
Hi,
I read this thread with interest as I will be invited to claim PIP after Oct 2015. I am in receipt of DLA Middle care and High rate Mobility achieving the mobility award due to only being able to walk up to 50 meters. Now with the limit for enhanced rate for PIP being up to 20 meters, I was hoping to meet the shortfall with needing assistance going out. I have moderate to severe hearing loss and even wearing 2 hearing aids I struggle to follow conversations especially from strangers and therefore have lost all confidence when out. I would not be able to follow directions from a stranger.
I also attend our local swimming pool as advised by my physiotherapist (written in a copy report from him) as this helps with my arthritic problems but need my husband to assist me in the disabled changing room with dressing etc.
What are your views on the current ruling re the Going out element as to possible entitlement.
Many thanks for your input. Furry.
I read this thread with interest as I will be invited to claim PIP after Oct 2015. I am in receipt of DLA Middle care and High rate Mobility achieving the mobility award due to only being able to walk up to 50 meters. Now with the limit for enhanced rate for PIP being up to 20 meters, I was hoping to meet the shortfall with needing assistance going out. I have moderate to severe hearing loss and even wearing 2 hearing aids I struggle to follow conversations especially from strangers and therefore have lost all confidence when out. I would not be able to follow directions from a stranger.
I also attend our local swimming pool as advised by my physiotherapist (written in a copy report from him) as this helps with my arthritic problems but need my husband to assist me in the disabled changing room with dressing etc.
What are your views on the current ruling re the Going out element as to possible entitlement.
Many thanks for your input. Furry.
Last edit: 9 years 7 months ago by Gordon.
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9 years 7 months ago #125209 by Gordon
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by Gordon on topic PIP Mobility - So let's get this right
furry
I think you and everybody with a similar interest in this topic need to familiarise themselves with the Going Out Descriptors and our guidance in the PIP Claim guide
www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/help-for-claimants/pip
The Descriptors are as follows
As you can see sub-Descriptors (b) and (e) can only be scored where there is "overwhelming psychological distress", (c) is related to route planning, leaving only (d) and (f) as potentially scoring for claimants without mental health issues. However, these are both high scoring Descriptors and you will need to provide significant evidence in support of any limitations that you feel that you have in these areas.
I have to warn you that I do not believe that even complete hearing loss, in itself, will qualify you for the points, the guidance only refers to blindness as a qualifying condition.
Gordon
I think you and everybody with a similar interest in this topic need to familiarise themselves with the Going Out Descriptors and our guidance in the PIP Claim guide
www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/help-for-claimants/pip
The Descriptors are as follows
a. Can plan and follow the route of a journey unaided. 0 points.
b. Needs prompting to be able to undertake any journey to avoid overwhelming psychological distress to the claimant. 4 points.
c. Cannot plan the route of a journey. 8 points.
d. Cannot follow the route of an unfamiliar journey without another person, assistance dog or orientation aid. 10 points.
e. Cannot undertake any journey because it would cause overwhelming psychological distress to the claimant. 10 points.
f. Cannot follow the route of a familiar journey without another person, an assistance dog or
an orientation aid. 12 points.
As you can see sub-Descriptors (b) and (e) can only be scored where there is "overwhelming psychological distress", (c) is related to route planning, leaving only (d) and (f) as potentially scoring for claimants without mental health issues. However, these are both high scoring Descriptors and you will need to provide significant evidence in support of any limitations that you feel that you have in these areas.
I have to warn you that I do not believe that even complete hearing loss, in itself, will qualify you for the points, the guidance only refers to blindness as a qualifying condition.
Gordon
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