Labour were forced to abandon the PIP four point rule in the final hour of today’s debate, in order to save the Universal Credit and Personal Independence Payment Bill.

In the end, the bill passed its second reading with a majority of 75, with 335 voting in favour and 260 against.  49 Labour MPs rebelled and voted against the bill.  You can see a full list of the votes here

This means that the 4-point PIP rule is effectively dead after Labour made its biggest concession yet. 

Little more than an hour before today’s debate ended and voting began, Timms told the House: 

"I can announce that we are going to remove the clause five from the bill at committee, that we will move straight to the wider review, sometimes referred to as the Timms review, and only make changes to Pip eligibility, activities and descriptors following that review."

Clause 5 is the 4-point rule.

It will no longer appear in the bill when amendments are made next week.

This means that the Universal Credit and Personal Independence Payment Bill no longer has anything to do with Personal Independence Payment.

The main purpose of the bill is now to take money from future recipients of the UC health element, though current claimants will not be affected, and to introduce the severe conditions criteria.

The cut to the UC health element, in itself, should have been enough for MPs to vote the bill down, but it was an issue that received much less attention.

The Timms review will now decide the future of PIP.  And if, as Labour have promised, the review is genuinely coproduced with disabled people there is very little chance of the 4-point rule ever happening. 

There is undoubtedly still danger ahead, however.  Timms was asked twice if the changes to PIP made by the review would be put into primary or secondary legislation, Timms said that would depend on the result of the review.

But, if the government chooses to put any changes in secondary legislation, MPs would not be able to amend them and would not be given a vote on them, unless via arcane parliamentary procedure.  This may be a battleground for the third reading next week.

Nonetheless, as things stand, an enormous amount of distress has been caused to millions of disabled claimants, only to end up with a bill that has entirely abandoned its primary aim.

For Timms, Kendall and Reeves, however brave a face they put on it, today has been an enormous humiliation.  For campaigners, facing a government with a massive majority and an extraordinary degree of arrogance, it has been a remarkable – though by no means total - victory.

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  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 1 days ago
    I'm astounded, I didn't think it possible to dodge the 4 point rule. I can hardly believe the result. Well done to everyone who made the effort. The same argument for saving money will always be there, kicked in to the long grass for now.
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    · 1 days ago
    I am totally confused as to what just happened. Can I stop worrying? Is it good or bad? Can I sleep now? I really can't take anymore of this rubbish.
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      · 1 days ago
      @NEVER VOTED LABOUR Thanks for your reply 
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      · 1 days ago
      @Cuckoo21 I think you can sleep now , the four point rule has been completely taken out , its how I understand it .
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      · 1 days ago
      @Cuckoo21 I think we're left in limbo :( again more uncertainty... Is the work capability assessment being abolished?? Will pip questions and marking be changed and made more difficult??  Back to another year or more panicking about what might or might not happen:( I'm absolutely done with this now, can't cope with it much more... 
      We deserve better than this...
      One thing we can be certain off is whatever party are next in power will come at us with full force,,  we will never be left to heal or try to life without constant fear and persecution.
      I can't keep going through this, I know I'm not alone feeling this way .
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 1 days ago
    It's something at least. Still a massive danger as JCP staff are now the arbiters of ability to work with no decisions, how will there be an opportunity to dispute and have access to natural justice & dignity in the new process.
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      · 1 days ago
      @Marc Allison So people currently on UC with health element will have their fate decided by one person with no particular rules? I knew I shouldn't have been even slightly relieved. I have invisible illness, I'm fat, people just assume I'm lazy, even one GP told me I just need to exercise and make some friends then I might feel like pushing myself a bit. Every day is a struggle. I get disabling pain and NICE guidelines say not to exercise and to pace, not push but someone while no medical training at all can decide I have to work? So still living in constant fear. This will kill me quicker than losing pip would. 
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 1 days ago
    I said before, this should have never happened. Neither a defeat or victory. but still far from ideal.

    Slime personified.......Timms, Reeves, Kendall, are incredibly devious and THICK.......... oops nearly forgot Keir the Tool (maker) althought not thick, just ultra sly and dishonest. He knew about all this, no matter how distracted he claimed he had been, he is a lawyer and would have known the detail.

    Slimey        Timms re- was asked twice if the changes to PIP made by the review would be put into primary or secondary legislation.  Watch this space. 

    Overall just were back to 70-80% of where we ought to be, obvioulsly depending on your personal situation. 

    A postive is perhaps the wider public will realise a Government never climbs down, unless forced.

    I read most papers ( selectively) imo  think a big percentage of the population does not care about benefits, unless it affects them or their pockets, that i suppose is life though.  
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 1 days ago
    As long as kendall and timms are in there positions the disabled community can’t in good faith collaborate with them

    Over the last few months both have told lie, ignored our concerns and input and their consultation basically said all important decisions had already been made and they wouldn’t be considering any disabled opinions.

    Even yesterday’s promise of disabled being directly involved in timms review turned out to be overstated and basically timms writing whatever the hell he wants and confirmed that that review was also being rushed through in following mere months.

    This is no partnership with disabled (more like guards at a work house or prison)

    Labour can’t successfully progress with disability reforms without a clean slate and to do that Kendall, timms and McGowan need to be fired and Labour MPs who have openly engaged with disabled & their concerns this past month be offered in their place - a fresh start

    (Reeves isn’t technically responsible for reforming welfare so sadly she’s someone else responsibility to trigger that karma) 
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 1 days ago
    Watching it in parliament I can say it was a total sh*t show. Now if they don't put those amendments in the way they have been presented and try to get round it somehow next week will be a bloodbath. I wanna know if the MPs who voted no will lose the labour whip
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 1 days ago
    I thought the plan now is. For the 4 point PIP rule to be implemented as part of the Timms new PIP assessment new descriptors and points system. As soon as possible after the Timms review reports in Autumn 2026. With existing claimants exempt from the 4 point rule and possibly kept on the old descriptor and points system. And ongoing PIP award claimants not reassessed unless they report a relevant change in circumstances.

    Although given the rebels objections to the PIP 4 point rule and objection to have existing and new claimants under different rules. That could change. And instead we get a system where the 50% reduction in eligibility is achieved by having a new descriptos and points system and all claimants existing and new under the new system. Which would be worse for many people than the original plan. 
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 1 days ago
      @Slb I don't recall hearing the government say they are abandoning the plan to have a 4 point PIP rule. Quite the opposite they defended having a two tier system with different assessment systems even in the closing statement of the debate after they had abandoned introducing the system in this legislation. My understanding is that the 4 point PIP plan is currently still part of the system Timms plans to introduce after his review. Of course it might be abandoned as it along with having separate systems for existing and new claimants are the things the rebels most objected to. 
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 1 days ago
      @Ala Sadly no. If you have an ongoing PIP award you award letter will state you have an ongoing or a indefinite award (the terms are used interchangeably) with a light touch review in ten years. Ongoing/indefinite awards have no end date and light touch reviews are primarily just to check the claimant is still alive and their contact details are correct. Light Touch reviews are an AR2 form with basically 3 questions and the option of ticking no change. If no relevant change is reported the claim is basically rubber stamped and another light touch review will be done in another 10 years. If a relevant change in circumstance is reported it can trigger a reassessment. 
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 1 days ago
      @John would 6 year award would be an ongoing one?
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 1 days ago
      @John Nope.  4 point rule is out, unless recommended by Timms.. That means any promises to current claimants to be reassessed under old rules are also out as they were amendments of the four point rule.  And to add to that, MPs might not get the chance to debate or vote on any changes in the future.  By pushing for everything, we got nothing except a last minute conjuring trick that everyone fell for.  All we have achieved is pushing the uncertainty into 2027. 

  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 1 days ago
    Does this mean that the horrendous work capability assessment is staying ?? I'm completely lost to what is going on .
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 1 days ago
      @T The Work Capability Assessment is not part of the current bill, and so the future of that will be determined further down the road.
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 1 days ago
      @T Same - I've given up trying to understand it!
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      · 1 days ago
      @T Ditto. + 1,000,000
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 1 days ago
    Thank you to B@W. 

    Thank you to everyone who opposed this in whatever capacity. 

    Thank you to all the MPs who had the courage to stand up for vulnerable and disabled people, some of whom told moving and personal stories of their own.

    Although there will be a respite for now, we cannot take our eyes off the ball. 

    But for now, I hope many people can rest easier for a while.

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    · 1 days ago
    But what about those of us on legacy benefits who were too ill to “migrate” to UC in the deadline they were given?  My council is only just migrating people. We are treated as completely new claimants despite being on legacy benefits with the severe health component for decades.  We will be penalised for the rest of our lives.  And what are the severe conditions criteria?  And what happens next?
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 1 days ago
      @Radionoush Contact your MP and ask for help!  
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 1 days ago
      @Radionoush
      That's rotten being migrated to UC without linking the severe health component to the transition. Being transferred doesn't mean that claimants are magically relieved of their disability. 

  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 1 days ago
    However disappointed I am that the bill passed this stage, I just want to say WELL DONE EVERYONE FOR EVERYTHING YOU HAVE DONE TO FORCE THIS GOVERNMENT WITH ITS TAIL BETWEEN ITS LEGS to backtrack on so much. A joyous day for me would be to see the sacking of Timms, Kendall, Reeves and, ultimately, Starmer. 
    Still work to do this week. Love to all. 
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 1 days ago
      @Slb I semi agree with you

      There’s a saying ‘if you take a shot make sure you don’t miss!’

      At the end of the day the only way we would of won is for the bill to have gotten defeated

      Rebel MPs are celebrating that they got a climb down and think they have minister by the short and curlys 

      But at the end of the day ministers successfully found the rebels will u turn if offered the right price 

      None of these concessions were in the bill (legally binding) so technically is only a verbal agreement which on this govs track record could be regressed on over the next week (do we even know if the bill will be rewritten including concessions in time for the 3rd reading and last chance for MPs to see sense and vote this mockery down)

      Labour rebels think their shot hit the target - but the reality is they missed all ‘vital organs’ of the bill and Labour ministers will not make the same mistake twice of being bullied by rebels and be sneakier in the future

      So yes, yesterdays ‘victory’ may of come at a huge price 

      But the shot had to be taken - the mistake we made is that think 70 or so rebel MPs would take their eye off the ball (and think they could have their cake and eat it - many are justifying their flip flop as the result of their ‘success’ but they can’t see they’ve been hoodwinked and have once again put party ahead of their constituents)

      This could turn out to be a poll tax type moment these flip flop rebels could regret for years because they prematurely arrogantly thought they had ‘won’

      They have one more chance to right next week - we can’t relent either on pressure and communication with MPs and need to try and reopen their eyes before it’s too late
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 1 days ago
      @Gingin ❤️
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 1 days ago
      @Gingin Unfortunately, the govt has simply performed a sleight of hand.  The four point rule has gone, but with it so have assurances about us being reassessed under the rules.  That was part of section 5, which is now excised completely.  And now MPs might not get to vote on future changes.  Many didn't agree with me at the weekend when I said we should take the concessions at that point as a win and get ready for the next battle - but the future of 375,000 would have been more secure had we done so.
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 1 days ago
      @Gingin You might get your wish with the first three: Starmer will have a major cabinet reshuffle come the autumn
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 1 days ago
    Is this result good or bad? I feel no better informed than I did this morning, just even more confused. 
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      · 1 days ago
      @SLB SLB... what happens after the next general election in 2029, right? The best possible scenario is pushing the status quo (or as close to the status quo as possible) until 2029. Uncertainty can't be removed, only delayed.
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 1 days ago
      @Cuckoo21 It means that any changes are going to be pushed back until 2027 or maybe later.   It means the 4 point rule may or may not be part of those changes, depending on what is decided within the "Timms Report," which doesn't sound half as much as "Minority Report!"  But it also means that we have probably lost the commitment that current claimants will be reassessed in the future under the current rules.  By pushing for more, we have got less.
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 1 days ago
      @Cuckoo21 You aren't the only one. I'm not even sure the government knows either! 
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    · 1 days ago
    When will the third reading take place and the final vote? 
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 1 days ago
      @shadowpony And what did Hoyle play.
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 1 days ago
      @shadowpony It almost certainly will be a money bill in its new form.  The eligibility sections have been axed, so really the only thing left is the financial element.
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 1 days ago
      @MJ 9 july if the govt have their way..  though i'm not certain if it was certified as a money bill or not.

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