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McFadden says WCA will be abolished, but can’t say when or how

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Secretary of state for work and pensions Pat McFadden has confirmed to the Commons work and pensions committee this week that the work capability assessment (WCA) will to be abolished, but is unable to explain when or how this will happen.

The WPC wrote to McFadden last month, saying

“We understand the WCA will be continuing until 2029-30. When can we expect to hear whether the WCA will continue beyond this date? Is it still your intention to abolish the Work Capability Assessment? If so, what is the timetable for this?”

McFadden’s response added little to the committee’s knowledge:

“Due to its link with the PIP assessment, WCA abolition will not happen until after the Timms Review into the PIP assessment has concluded and any recommendations have been made. In the meantime, work is continuing to determine the detail of how this reformed system would work and discussions are also ongoing with the Scottish Government regarding the interactions between the devolved and reserved systems. We will outline further details on the reformed system, and the timing of WCA abolition, in due course.”

So, the DWP is still insisting the WCA will be abolished, but can provide absolutely no further details.

The reality appears to be that, because qualifying for the health element of UC will be based on receiving the daily living component of PIP, the DWP are as much in the dark about what is going to happen as everyone else, until the Timms review has completed its work.

Either that, or the DWP know exactly what is going to happen, but cannot say anything because that would suggest that the Timms review is a sham and decisions about the future of PIP and the WCA have already been made.

Because, as McFadden confirmed in his answer to another question from the WPC, ultimately it isn’t the Timms review that makes the final decision on the future of PIP and the WCA, it’s him.

The WPC asked:

“What is the process by which final decisions will be made concerning the Timms Review, and who will be involved in this?”

McFadden replied:

“As set out in the Terms of Reference and confirmed to the House on 30 October, these recommendations will go to me for final decisions, with an interim report expected early summer. . . The Review’s outcomes will be reported to Parliament, and we will hold a full debate in Government time.”

So, in the end, whatever the review recommends, it will be down to one person to decide what changes are put before the House.

You can read McFadden’s full response to the work and pensions committee here.

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  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    Jez
    · 6 days ago
    Scary so much confusion by McFadden and DWP. The Timms Review means absolutely nothing, just a paper exercise, for McF to just disagree with and do whatever he sees fit.
     
    All of his Political Career has been about Business or Finance. This is what Pat McF has been placed into DWP for, to strip down payments and get as many people off UC, PIP and back to work.

    He has no understanding of life limiting diseases or what makes people sick and unable to work.
    People like myself would love to work but are unable to due to whatever disease or illness we suffer from. 

    I understand that there are people out there, who find it easier to live off benefits than try to work. it is these people who have to be found out and removed from the system and back into society.

    God help the poor people who have every right to be on UC and PIP and have no other way of being able to pay to exist. And try to live a normal as possible life with the McFadden's Hammer hanging above our heads.
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    Anon
    · 7 days ago
    In my own opinion it makes no difference which political party is dominating the welfare agenda as ultimately they all have the same position of welfare benefits. Especially as the political candidates defect from their main political parties due to some scandal; and return back to the actual big political parties at the time of the Elections which is when their votes are most needed.  

    Again this comes back to the bottom line which is controlling the narrative at the disadvantage of the claimants. I agree changes need to be made to get people back into work rather than the first port of thinking being "well if I can't work we welfare system will help us and or support us" from the claimants angle. 

    However this is a fine line between the process of ideas, implementation, testing and finalisation of this, which needs to be inclusive of cross party working to include the voice of the claimants.     
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    Tracy Numb
    · 12 days ago
    From this news article it appears a lot of the proposed welfare reforms are being put on hold this parliament?
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15508625/Keir-Starmer-benefits-curbs-Kings-Speech-revolt-Labour-MPs.html
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      adrian
      · 7 days ago
      @Tracy Numb SAY to min  autum 2027  budget . AFTER  timms report   AS unite untion member  , AGE 62   now  claim  LCWRA   NOT PIP , DAILY LIVING .  STIIL  dont   no what happen after protection runs out  2029/ 2030 ????.   BE  65/ 66 then .   1 YEAR  offchial retire .  NO  more reasssetnments excisting  LCWRA  Claims .  BUT  could be  REVEIWS ????.  DIFFRENT rules for NEW claims lcwra from aptril 2026 .   I NO  UNITE , GMB , RMT , UNISON UNTIONS . PUT  lot pressure on labour  ref further  disability cuts.  THREATED TO  stop fianchial  support .   TIME  tel next 3 yrs .   least 18 mouths  breathe space for now . STAY  safe / well . 
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      Neil
      · 12 days ago
      @Tracy Numb Oh I can but hope
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    adrian
    · 14 days ago
    THIS  is scary  say you are age 62- 64 now  jan 2026 ????.  PASSED WCA50 = AWARDED LCWRA . . HAVE  2nd degenrative disability  for life  AGE , 62- 67 retire .    PAYED  in  43 out 45 yrs in work  Class1 tax , ni (PAYE) .  NOT  GOVERTNMENTS CARE .   BENEFITS NOT FREE //////  NI  IS  NOT & TAX .    BUT  you dont claim(  PIP),   ONLY  LCWRA .  YOUR  disability is mobility  restricted stand 1 min //// shuffle aided stick 20 meteres .    AS excisting claim   LCWRA , SAY  we get lcwra  to end parlitanment  2029- 2030   ill  be  age 66 then .   AS  in future  lcwra ////  be replaced with the health  eletnment  UC  .    BUT ,   but  to qualify for NEW  health eletnment   (UC).    YOU   have to apply for  & be awarded  DAILY LIVING ELETNMENT (PIP) .   AS ,,   MOBILTY DISABILTY  PIP, MOBILITY   will not count towards being UNFIT FOR / TO WORK ?????HEALTH ELETNMENT .      JOKE  LABOUR 2024   DWP   CANT  WANT SAY  HOW WHEN   IF  IT BE ABOLISHED ( LCWRA ) .  SCARY ,   NEXT 3 YRS  AHEAD   SO ?????  AGE  62 - 64 now  claim  LCWRA   mobilty  less 50 meteres aided/ un aided .    SO WE  left high dry ?????   SUDDENLY   be deamed  FIT  for work  if we dont get  HEALTH ELETNMENT  UC //////   PIP DAILY LIVING ?????. 
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    Krystina Stephenson
    · 14 days ago
    They will, as they always have  be marking their own homework. So much for transparency Nd involving us fully in the process. God help us all if Reform get into power. It will allow and increase the cruelty we have always seen at the  DWP. Not all staff are cruel, but those who are will have free rein. I'm scared.
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    Duncan
    · 14 days ago
    Some people say that a country is judged by how it treats its sick and needy, god knows what the world must think of us 
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    Andrew Goldsborough
    · 14 days ago
    Why is it poor people get treated so badly 
    But politicians who decide the rules get richer. 
    Pay rises, perks of the job, freebies, tax rebates, expenses. Its totally wrong that the voters who put 
    Them where they are,  get put on the scrapheap. 
    DISGUSTING ATTITUDE TOWARDS US LESS FORTUNATE. 
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    JWM
    · 21 days ago
    They will have to add lots to the pip assessment form because wca and pip forms are completely different and cover different things!

    Will this not just add more to the welfare bill because so many claimants will be entitled to both pip and UC health payments, which not all currently claim for!
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      Bustles
      · 14 days ago
      @Kevin1342 Is this not the standard way to fill in a pip form? I thought the purpose of it was to tell them what you can can’t do and explain why and also include diagnosis’?? 
      I doubt there would be a form ever with diagnosis only, because the same named condition can present very differently in different individuals. 
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      Kevin1342
      · 15 days ago
      @rookie Speaking from personal experience, the secret to making a successful claim is to tell them what you can/can't do and explain why.  In explaining why you can mention any diagnosis you have.
      I am not aware of any benefit where the claim is just based on the diagnosis, but if there is please correct me because it would save the endless stress of PIP claims/reviews etc......
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      Neil
      · 15 days ago
      @rookie I have anxiety,depression,panic attacks etc and various plus physical issues including back and leg Odin which result in me needing to use a mobility scooter when I need to leave my flat. The ache and pain in my back and legs is pretty much  constant these days. I know it doesn't sound like much but for me it definitely is, the mental health side I have had for just over 30yrs too
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      rookie
      · 17 days ago
      @Neil Neil if you don't mind me asking what conditions are you claiming for
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      Copycat
      · 18 days ago
      @tintack Yes Labour MPs would lose just south of 100k a year.
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    ZIGGY
    · 21 days ago
    Let's be honest the WCA hasn't really been used since before 2020 I believe the last mass use was 2018-19 under Damian Green quote " it's pointless to keep assessing people only to determine the same outcome, it doesn't do the claimant any good and it's costly so we will stop it for life long conditions"  most people won't have had one in years unless it's done using original paper based information.  PIP isn't means tested but UC is so that's an issue going forward just using daily living outcomes for UC health.
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      adrian
      · 14 days ago
      @ZIGGY THATS  issuie  if you claim  LCWRA , ???   NOW ,  2024- 2026 .  MOBILITY LIMITED 20 METERES MAX AID/ UN AIDED .  YOY  dont current claim   (PIP)  JUST LCWRA , AGE 62 .       ONLY  way you can get UC (health eletnment in future ) .  IF  you apply  & get  PIP , DAILY LIVING  .  pip  mobility according,,,,    LABOUR 2024 , PAT , DWP ,   NOT BARREIR TO WORK ?????/      SICK JOKE     MOBILTY IS INPORTANT  CANT GO FAR DO MUCH ALONE WORK .    MOST AGE   55- 64  CLAIM LCWRA    MOBILITY ISSUIES .  NOT  daily living 
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      Krystal Heart
      · 14 days ago
      @ZIGGY It was used for my change from ESA to UC only last year.
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      ZIGGY
      · 20 days ago
      @John What they also didn't do is confirm if people had been put in the life long Severe conditions.  Instead, leaving people still uncertain if they qualified regardless if they had a lifelong illness. People who asked for information still read they have a severe long term condition by a specialist. Only for the DWP agent to state a review in 2 years for Parkinson's, MS Crohn's disease variety of permanent illnesses. 
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      rtbcpart2
      · 21 days ago
      @ZIGGY It's totally illogical using pip daily living outcomes for UC health when pip isn't a capacity for work benefit. Linking it to UC health says pip daily living is awarded because of incapacity for work, when many pip claimants do work. It will therefore be possible to be in work, but in receipt of pip and therefore qualify for a benefit which says you are unable to work.

    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      John
      · 21 days ago
      @ZIGGY In 2017 the Tories created the Severe Conditions Criteria Group for those with life long conditions. So they would not be reassessed.

      During Covid the Tories effectively stopped reassessments as they focused on new UC claims.

      Then the Tories stopped doing reassessments as they were intending to abolish the WCA.

      Despite Labour also intending to abolish the WCA they have restarted targeted WCA reassessments. Aimed at those whose condition would be expected to have improved, short duration awards that are overdue reassessment. And targeted at those awarded due to substantial risk. Labour have also changed Severe Conditions Criteria so substantial risk no longer qualifies. This will have the effect of reducing the number of people forecast to lose their benefits when the WCA is abolished and replaced by the new Timms review PIP assessment. As they will have already lost their benefits.

      Labour have also changed standard PIP award durations for claimants aged 25 or over to 3 years for a new claim and 5 years for a reassessment. This will reduce the number of people forecast in the short-term to lose their PIP when the PIP assessment system is changed. As they will be kicked into the long grass, expected to lose their benefits years latter than they would have.

      The motivation for the current changes seems to be to make the future legislation easier to get through Parliament. Reducing the headline figures of numbers who will lose their benefits, and possibly reducing the number of people on PIP writing to MPs as their PIP assessments will be further away in time. 
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    keepingitreal
    · 22 days ago
    Whatever the government abolishes or tries to put in place, the welfare system will continue to be chaos because noone in power has a clue how it all fits together. They just can't see it as a whole, which is why it's more madness to withhold information from the likes of cab and disability organisations, which have people who have studied the system. It's also why there should be more genuine consultation and coproduction with claimants before new measures are introduced.
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    Neil
    · 22 days ago
    I hopey pip application does succeed though even if it takes a tribunal to do so coz it's likely my only way of getting through this as unscathed as possible.
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      James h
      · 15 days ago
      @Copycat @Copycat yes but when In a bad state of depression don’t feel like eating most of the time anyway and food is cheap at Aldi and Lidl  it’s very cheap living here in this bedsit 
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      Copycat
      · 19 days ago
      @James h Do you have too fund utilities and food etc though?
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      Copycat
      · 20 days ago
      @Neil Probably be difficult for you too get it in the current climate.
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      Neil
      · 21 days ago
      @James h Hope you are successful.
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      James h
      · 21 days ago
      @Neil @Neil hello I’m on lcw yes their is a way to get lcwra I did a change of health in June 2025 already sent uc50 off had a nhs psychologist give me up to date diagnosis end of 2016 so got all my evidence ready expecting a wca maybe this July but these face to face work coach meetings are making me so mentally poorly I already requested them to be a phone call instead last year and they said no so I’m just stuck in a queue 🙁
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    Neil
    · 22 days ago
    This has got me absolutely petrified right now coz I'm in the MR stage of pip application and tbh I'm not too hopeful coz my luck is abysmal with anything like this
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      Copycat
      · 21 days ago
      @Neil Neil I'm Ruddy scared too death as well
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    pp
    · 22 days ago
    yes but it will be replaced with it called somthing else
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    Neil
    · 22 days ago
    Does this mean that the WCA could be abolished before the 2029/30 year possibly?
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      tintack
      · 22 days ago
      @Neil
      "Does this mean that the WCA could be abolished before the 2029/30 year possibly?"

      Who knows - the budget seemed to say that WCAs would still be happening in 2029/30, so the WCA could still be around at that point. This bit from McFadden suggests they don't have a clue how this is going to work:

      "In the meantime, work is continuing to determine the detail of how this reformed system would work........We will outline further details on the reformed system, and the timing of WCA abolition, in due course.”

      The May elections really are vital now. if the results are bad enough for Labour then Starmer could be gone and then all bets are off. But they need to lose to parties to their left. It's no good havng them lose a load of seats to Reform, or they'll just contnue their obsession with serving up right wing slop in a vain attempt to chase Reform voters who will never vote for them. 
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      Copycat
      · 22 days ago
      @Neil Yes probably after the Timms review at the end of 2026, they will want it to go ahead whilst still in office.
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      John
      · 22 days ago
      @Neil The pathways to work paper has 2028/29 as the prospective date for abolishing the WCA. If it is still Labour policy by then and if they can get parliament to agree.

      Starmer maybe ousted after the May local elections and replaced by Streeting or Mahmood or Lammy or Miliband or Carns or Rayner or Burnham or who knows who. 
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    tintack
    · 22 days ago
    It seems clear nothing is going to happen before the May elections, which makes it even more important to give a Labour as big a thumping as possible at those elections by voting for parties to their left. If they lose to the SNP in Scotland (which seems likely), Plaid Cymru in Wales (which seems very likely) and a significant number of seats to the Greens in London (a distinct possibility) then they will know that any attempt to impose more right wing policies, including disability cuts, will carry a heavy electoral price. That's a price most of their MPs know they can't afford to pay, with so many of them sitting on small and very precarious majorities, and they are already losing far more votes to the Greens (and to a lesser extent Lib Dems) than they are to Reform.  

    Once we know the details of what they're planning we'll have to fight again as we did last year. If it looks certain that WCA abolition is going to happen at some point then the only option to avoid the new system is to trigger a WCA reassessment to get into the severe conditons group - assuming of course that you have medical evidence to show that the condition that qualified you for LCWRA in the first place is never likely to improve. It may be risky, but it may also be a better option than waiting to be screwed over by whatever the new system turns out to be.
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      tintack
      · 20 days ago
      @Copycat
      "@tintack I think you could be bomb proof with your conditions sounds horrendous."

      In theory I should be, at least under the current system. Obviously you never know if you're going to get an obnoxious assessor on the day and have to take it to tribunal, but I meet the severe conditions group criteria and I should be able to get medical evidence from my consultant to back that up. As risky as it may be to trigger a WCA reassessment, it may be better than waiting for the next two or three years, or however long it takes for the WCA to be abolished (assuming that actually happens) and then finding it's almost impossible to qualify for the severe conditions group under whatever the new system turns out to be. 

      I'm not going to do anything just yet - first I need to see my consultant, wait for the updated report to arrive and check that it says what I need it to say. I also need to make a bit more progress in recovering from the recent spinal surgery, which really was a huge assault on my system (especially given that my system is already weakened due to the loss of an adrenal gland), before I even think of going through a reassessment process. But, on balance, when I'm ready it may be a better option than waiting for the new system and then finding that system has different criteria which would screw me over. 
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      Copycat
      · 21 days ago
      @tintack I think you could be bomb proof with your conditions sounds horrendous.
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      tintack
      · 22 days ago
      @Copycat
      "@tintack If you don't mind me asking do you think you would qualify with your conditions."

      In theory, yes. The specific problem which qualifies me for LCWRA is not going to improve, and indeed is considerably worse now (due to the side effects of surgery) than it was at the time of my last WCA. It's now bad enough that the "constantly" stipulation applies. I need an up to date report from my consultant stating that, and I have an appointment in a couple of weeks, so I will have to ask for it and be clear on what I need that report to state. 

      Since my last WCA I have also barely survived an incredibly rare from of adrenal tumour which came within a whisker of killing me. Although now removed, they had to remove the entire affected adrenal gland to be sure the tumour was gone, so I now only have one adrenal gland. Although my yearly blood tests since then have been OK in the sense that they have shown no sign of a tumour recurrence, I have not been the same since the gland was taken out. I frequently suffer from exhaustion and dizziness, and it is known that because these tumours are so rare, they are often in the system for a long time before their presence is even suspected, let alone diagnosed and removed. That means they have plenty of time to do lasting damage to many areas of the body before they are dealt with. How I would fit these sort of symptoms into a LCWRA descriptor and severe conditions group test I'm not sure at present - it's not what I claimed LCWRA for as I hadn't had the tumour at the time of my last WCA, but exhaustion and dizziness would presumaly be related to stipulations of the test like being able to do something safely, repeatedly and reliably. That said, once you lose an adrenal gland it's gone for good, so the resulting diminished physical capacity is lifelong, and the lasting damage caused when the tumour was still there are also likely to be lifelong.

      Similarly, I'm in the early stages of recovering from really major spinal surgery, having had rods and screws inserted into literally about half my entire spine. It seems they were only able to partially correct the deformity and there is no other treatment available, so I don't yet know if I'm still going to have a lifelong problem with that too. Hopefully it has the intended effect and eventually reduces the severe pain once the healing process is completed (that is some months away yet), but if not, and I have a lifelong problem with that too, I'd also have to look into how that fits into the LCWRA/severe conditions group criteria.  Although, as I said above, in theory, the condition with which I qualifed for LCWRA in the first place should be enough for the severe conditions group anyway. But I definitely need that updated evidence, and I need it to state the required points clearly.   
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      Copycat
      · 22 days ago
      @tintack If you don't mind me asking do you think you would qualify with your conditions.
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      tintack
      · 22 days ago
      @Copycat
      "There not going too allow everybody into the Severe Disability Group."

      Well, no - of course they won't let everyone into the severe conditions group, nor did I say they would. Not everyone will have evidence that the condition that qualified them for LCWRA will never improve, and if you don't have medical evidence to that effect then obviously you won't get in. But if you have that evidence, you have a chance.  
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    John
    · 22 days ago
    In other news the DWP's Work Well scheme is being expanded across the country. Work Well is designed as a early intervention scheme to keep people in work and to get new claimants back to work. By having the DWP refer people with mental health conditions to counselling and psychological support and those with pain or mobility problems to physiotherapy. And by doing so reduce benefits spending and free up GP time and reduce use of the NHS.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/expansion-of-support-scheme-to-help-thousands-of-people-back-into-work

    I do wonder how DWP work coaches so quickly became defacto Doctors qualified to refer people for treatments. And I do wonder if things like therapy will be one-to-one or group therapy, and what access the DWP work coaches have to medical information. Having benefit assessments is distressing and intrusive enough without the DWP effectively making it a constant thing as they play Doctor trying to get you well and to go to work. 
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      Copycat
      · 22 days ago
      @John We could all be sign posted then potentially.
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      John
      · 22 days ago
      @James h
      The work well scheme is currently voluntary. But that is normal when the DWP wants to create evidence that a scheme for the disabled works. Question is will it remain voluntary. Especially in the future if they abolish the WCA and along with it LCW and LCWRA status. And lots of people who would have been deemed unfit for work find they do not meet the eligibility criteria for the severe conditions criteria or UC health under the new Timms PIP assessment system focused on the most severely disabled. 
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      tintack
      · 22 days ago
      @John
      "I do wonder how DWP work coaches so quickly became defacto Doctors qualified to refer people for treatments"

      It's known as Instant Medical Expert Syndrome. This remarkable condition also affects people who say someone they know on sickness benefit doesn't really need it because "they look fine". Of course, if these same people woke up one day in terrible pain, went to see their GP and were told "I can tell there's nothing wrong with you - after all, you look fine", they would be outraged.
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      James h
      · 22 days ago
      @John @John i think if you are on the uc work search one then workwell restart and others this is all mandatory myself being on uc lcw all this was said to me but a polite “no I do not want this and it’s voluntary”then it all was forgotten about I got a new work coach in 2 weeks time so he will be getting the  same answer again just hope I get lcwra when my reassessment happens sometime this year and for autism depression anxiety I’m confident I can other people seem to get it no problem no reason why I can’t get it and also I told the work coach at our last meeting your not a doctor so don’t act like you are and she went very quiet 
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    bronc
    · 22 days ago
    McFadden is a Starmer hatchet man, installed after the humiliating defeat of summer 2024,  with the compassion of an icicle towards those of us on benefits. He has already made it clear that spending on PIP will not be allowed to rise beyond OBR projections. This government will want to use disabled people as an easy target to bash come the next general election as it desperately tries to outdo Reform and the Tories with anti claimant rhetoric. So we will have a fight on our hands to defend our rights for the next few years. Sounds exhausting and frightening but what other choice do we have but to continue to fight for our human rights. The disabled community must continue to build alliances with other groups across our society. We can defeat the upcoming cuts!
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      Chazy
      · 21 days ago
      @bronc Shame we lost the ''Coal Miners'' I know they lost the fight but they put up a hell of a battle ! I know they would stand shoulder to shoulder with us. No one wants to put their head above the parapet now, the odd few that do get swiftly silenced or frog marched to jail. 

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