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Why have descriptors if they are not going them ?
- Buckie
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11 years 3 weeks ago - 11 years 3 weeks ago #102176 by Buckie
Why have descriptors if they are not going them ? was created by Buckie
Hi all, as by way of an up-date to my claim situation, (above)
I’ve just had a phone call to inform me my application for ESA has been unsuccessful, and therefore I will now be transferred onto JSA ! It’s shattered me, especially since I have an appeal on Monday regarding DLA. To be honest I’m in such a depressed state, I’m thinking of not attending the Appeal in person now, as failing the DLA face to face, too, would just be too much.
I can’t for the love of me think why I failed the very first descriptor ? I couldn’t walk the 75 yards from reception up to his office, I had to stop half way up the corridor as the pain was so severe. The very first thing I said on entering the room, as he sped off ahead of us, was “I hope you’re not thinking of making me bend, stretch, and walk any further, as I’m in Bloody agony with the walk I’ve just done” He replied, it’s not a medical examination as such, it’s an assessment more question orientated. On the way out, again I had to stop as the pain was so bad, and on making it to the car, we had to sit some 10 minutes before I felt I could drive the few miles home. The next 4 days, I was laid up and could not walk at all.
So why have those descriptors if they are not going to use them ?
The lady on the phone said, What do you think of that ? I replied, I think it’s all wrong, as I can’t walk 50 yards without being in server pain ? She replied, “Well you did get 9 points for that, so it’s not that bad ?” I just couldn’t believe it, at the very least I thought I’s be in the WRAG group ?
I also said I would be Appealing, and with that, her attitude changed. It was as if she didn’t want me to Appeal, I just couldn’t understand the change of attitude as she told me, that was my right !!!
Is there any Justice ?
I’ve just had a phone call to inform me my application for ESA has been unsuccessful, and therefore I will now be transferred onto JSA ! It’s shattered me, especially since I have an appeal on Monday regarding DLA. To be honest I’m in such a depressed state, I’m thinking of not attending the Appeal in person now, as failing the DLA face to face, too, would just be too much.
I can’t for the love of me think why I failed the very first descriptor ? I couldn’t walk the 75 yards from reception up to his office, I had to stop half way up the corridor as the pain was so severe. The very first thing I said on entering the room, as he sped off ahead of us, was “I hope you’re not thinking of making me bend, stretch, and walk any further, as I’m in Bloody agony with the walk I’ve just done” He replied, it’s not a medical examination as such, it’s an assessment more question orientated. On the way out, again I had to stop as the pain was so bad, and on making it to the car, we had to sit some 10 minutes before I felt I could drive the few miles home. The next 4 days, I was laid up and could not walk at all.
So why have those descriptors if they are not going to use them ?
The lady on the phone said, What do you think of that ? I replied, I think it’s all wrong, as I can’t walk 50 yards without being in server pain ? She replied, “Well you did get 9 points for that, so it’s not that bad ?” I just couldn’t believe it, at the very least I thought I’s be in the WRAG group ?
I also said I would be Appealing, and with that, her attitude changed. It was as if she didn’t want me to Appeal, I just couldn’t understand the change of attitude as she told me, that was my right !!!
Is there any Justice ?
Last edit: 11 years 3 weeks ago by Gordon.
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11 years 3 weeks ago - 11 years 3 weeks ago #102182 by Gordon
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by Gordon on topic Why have descriptors if they are not going them ?
Buckie
I am really sorry to hear that your claim has been unsuccessful.
A couple of points.
You will not be transferred to JSA, you can make a claim for JSA, but nothing will happen unless you do this.
With regard to Question 1. This is not a walking test, it is a test of your mobility, which in addition to walking tests your ability to propel a manual wheelchair over the same 200m. Whilst the usage must be reasonable, if it is, then the usage will be assumed, irrelevant of whether you use or even own a wheelchair.
I can understand the frustration at this ESA Decision, but if you do not attend your DLA tribunal you reduce the likelihood of it being successful by a fact of 4 or 5!
As to your ESA, if you do not feel capable of working and your GP is still prepared to provide you with Fit Notes then you can lodge an appeal. You should have a look at our ESA Appeal guide, see
www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/help-for-claimants/esa
You should also have a look at the following
How long do I have to appeal?
How to submit an appeal
ESA medical – what forms to ask for?
Qualifying for the WRAG
Disability Rights UK Factsheet - Appeals and reconsiderations
Preparing for a Tribunal
MOJ Video of ESA Appeals Process and Tribunal
If you have any questions, please reply to this post.
Gordon
I am really sorry to hear that your claim has been unsuccessful.
A couple of points.
You will not be transferred to JSA, you can make a claim for JSA, but nothing will happen unless you do this.
With regard to Question 1. This is not a walking test, it is a test of your mobility, which in addition to walking tests your ability to propel a manual wheelchair over the same 200m. Whilst the usage must be reasonable, if it is, then the usage will be assumed, irrelevant of whether you use or even own a wheelchair.
I can understand the frustration at this ESA Decision, but if you do not attend your DLA tribunal you reduce the likelihood of it being successful by a fact of 4 or 5!
As to your ESA, if you do not feel capable of working and your GP is still prepared to provide you with Fit Notes then you can lodge an appeal. You should have a look at our ESA Appeal guide, see
www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/help-for-claimants/esa
You should also have a look at the following
How long do I have to appeal?
How to submit an appeal
ESA medical – what forms to ask for?
Qualifying for the WRAG
Disability Rights UK Factsheet - Appeals and reconsiderations
Preparing for a Tribunal
MOJ Video of ESA Appeals Process and Tribunal
If you have any questions, please reply to this post.
Gordon
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Last edit: 11 years 3 weeks ago by Gordon.
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11 years 3 weeks ago - 11 years 3 weeks ago #102383 by Buckie
Replied by Buckie on topic Why have descriptors if they are not going them ?
Thanks for the reply Gordon but to complicate things even more, I received my letter today following the phone call. It explains what happened at the face to face medical and makes a farse of how the Decision Maker has made his decision !
“The HCP observed Mr X was able to walk 40 mtrs slowly stopping once, to the examination room.”
“The HCP noted that Mr X would be unable to propel a wheelchair”
YET ONLY 9 Points ?
“Mr X sat for 42 minutes raising twice from his chair”
The evidence suggests Mr X can remain seated or unseated at a work station for longer than an hour ?
The moving from one chair to another test was not even done ! That is a test I and the examiner knew I would not be able to do !
I have appealed and waiting of the appeal pack coming but I’m still fuming as the evidence alone in this report gives prudence to getting 15 points on the Mobility section and at least 6 points on the sitting or work station test !!!
So I’m not a happy bunny and still ask why have descriptors if they are not going to play fair with them !!!
“The HCP observed Mr X was able to walk 40 mtrs slowly stopping once, to the examination room.”
“The HCP noted that Mr X would be unable to propel a wheelchair”
YET ONLY 9 Points ?
“Mr X sat for 42 minutes raising twice from his chair”
The evidence suggests Mr X can remain seated or unseated at a work station for longer than an hour ?
The moving from one chair to another test was not even done ! That is a test I and the examiner knew I would not be able to do !
I have appealed and waiting of the appeal pack coming but I’m still fuming as the evidence alone in this report gives prudence to getting 15 points on the Mobility section and at least 6 points on the sitting or work station test !!!
So I’m not a happy bunny and still ask why have descriptors if they are not going to play fair with them !!!
Last edit: 11 years 3 weeks ago by Gordon.
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11 years 3 weeks ago #102387 by Gordon
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Replied by Gordon on topic Why have descriptors if they are not going them ?
Buckie
I just want to preface my answer by saying that I am not commenting on the accuracy, or not of the ATOS assessors comments, or your abilities to complete the tests, just what has been written.
Although you were observed to have stopped during the 40m walk, this does not imply that you could not walk further, for example; someone you can repeatedly walk 20m with a short and reasonable break into between, might be able to walk 100m before they experience significant discomfort.
The Standing and Sitting test is exactly that a test of your ability to stand and sit at a workstation.
You need to show that the conclusion in your ability to walk is incorrect, by explaining, or referring to your existing submission(s) why this is the case.
In regard to the Standing and Sitting test, you need to show that you would have to move away from a workstation due to significant discomfort.
I cannot comment on the Moving from One Chair to Another, but I assume you have evidence to support this.
Gordon
I just want to preface my answer by saying that I am not commenting on the accuracy, or not of the ATOS assessors comments, or your abilities to complete the tests, just what has been written.
Although you were observed to have stopped during the 40m walk, this does not imply that you could not walk further, for example; someone you can repeatedly walk 20m with a short and reasonable break into between, might be able to walk 100m before they experience significant discomfort.
The Standing and Sitting test is exactly that a test of your ability to stand and sit at a workstation.
You need to show that the conclusion in your ability to walk is incorrect, by explaining, or referring to your existing submission(s) why this is the case.
In regard to the Standing and Sitting test, you need to show that you would have to move away from a workstation due to significant discomfort.
I cannot comment on the Moving from One Chair to Another, but I assume you have evidence to support this.
Gordon
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11 years 3 weeks ago - 11 years 3 weeks ago #102392 by Buckie
Replied by Buckie on topic Why have descriptors if they are not going them ?
Gordon don’t for one moment think I’m getting at you here… I for one would be lost without the information I’ve got from this site and membership.
Regarding the test Moving from one chair to another !
When I and my carer first entered the examination room to start the examination I sat in the closest chair, the first chair. However the Doctor said “Could you sit in this one please” The one in front of the desk. I tried shuffling across but had to ask my carer to help as I couldn’t due to pain in my neck and lower back.
That in itself could have been the test but since it’s not even mentioned in this letter, nor any points awarded, I’m assuming No Test was done !
Also as mentioned in my first post here, I explained to the Doctor after walking the 40 mtrs I had to stop half way up the corridor as the pain was so severe. The very first thing I said on entering the room, as he sped off ahead of us, was “I hope you’re not thinking of making me bend, stretch, and walk any further, as I’m in Bloody agony with the walk I’ve just done”
So he knew I had to stop because of the severity of pain.
There is nothing in the letter that suggests I can walk over 100 mtrs or over 40 mtrs, So I can’t fathom out why the 15 were not awarded ? All it says is "This evidence suggests Mr X can do the 100 mtrs" What evidence is not explained !
I’m therefore just pointing out why have descriptors if it’s left up to a decision Maker not to use them as he has ignored what is in this letter ?
I realise the points you have said I must prove to win at an appeal, but surely the points the HCP has made in those comments do that for me ?
Regarding the test Moving from one chair to another !
When I and my carer first entered the examination room to start the examination I sat in the closest chair, the first chair. However the Doctor said “Could you sit in this one please” The one in front of the desk. I tried shuffling across but had to ask my carer to help as I couldn’t due to pain in my neck and lower back.
That in itself could have been the test but since it’s not even mentioned in this letter, nor any points awarded, I’m assuming No Test was done !
Also as mentioned in my first post here, I explained to the Doctor after walking the 40 mtrs I had to stop half way up the corridor as the pain was so severe. The very first thing I said on entering the room, as he sped off ahead of us, was “I hope you’re not thinking of making me bend, stretch, and walk any further, as I’m in Bloody agony with the walk I’ve just done”
So he knew I had to stop because of the severity of pain.
There is nothing in the letter that suggests I can walk over 100 mtrs or over 40 mtrs, So I can’t fathom out why the 15 were not awarded ? All it says is "This evidence suggests Mr X can do the 100 mtrs" What evidence is not explained !
I’m therefore just pointing out why have descriptors if it’s left up to a decision Maker not to use them as he has ignored what is in this letter ?
I realise the points you have said I must prove to win at an appeal, but surely the points the HCP has made in those comments do that for me ?
Last edit: 11 years 3 weeks ago by Gordon.
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11 years 3 weeks ago - 11 years 3 weeks ago #102402 by Gordon
To be honest, I do not think that they do.
The point I was trying to make in my previous post, was that in isolation, they suggest that there is some level of disability, but not enough to score significant points or be placed in the Support Group.
For example; “Mr X sat for 42 minutes raising twice from his chair” would suggest that you have no problems in moving from one chair to another, as according the report you sat, stood up, sat again, and then stood up again, and presumably sat down again, there is no suggestion that you needed assistance or experienced Significant Discomfort, and it would therefore be reasonable to assume that you could complete the task without problem.
From you latest post, this was clearly not the case, you need to point out these discrepancies as conclusions not support by the available evidence, both on the day and in the evidence supplied.
Gordon
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Replied by Gordon on topic Why have descriptors if they are not going them ?
Buckie wrote: I realise the points you have said I must prove to win at an appeal, but surely the points the HCP has made in those comments do that for me ?
To be honest, I do not think that they do.
The point I was trying to make in my previous post, was that in isolation, they suggest that there is some level of disability, but not enough to score significant points or be placed in the Support Group.
For example; “Mr X sat for 42 minutes raising twice from his chair” would suggest that you have no problems in moving from one chair to another, as according the report you sat, stood up, sat again, and then stood up again, and presumably sat down again, there is no suggestion that you needed assistance or experienced Significant Discomfort, and it would therefore be reasonable to assume that you could complete the task without problem.
From you latest post, this was clearly not the case, you need to point out these discrepancies as conclusions not support by the available evidence, both on the day and in the evidence supplied.
Gordon
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Last edit: 11 years 3 weeks ago by Gordon.
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