The second reading of the Universal Credit and Personal Independent Payment Bill begins at 1.40pm today.

The vote is expected at 7.00pm

You can watch the debate live on parliament tv here.

We won’t be giving a blow-by-blow account of the debate, but you are welcome to comment on proceedings below the line.


You can see a full list of the votes on the second reading here.  49 Labour MPs rebelled.


The vote on the Universal Credit and Personal Independence Payment Bill second reading is:  For 335.  Against 260.  A majority in favour of the bill of 75.


Here is the list of which MPs voted for and against the amendment.


The vote on the rebel amendment has now been held.  149 in favour of the bill being dropped without a second reading, 328 against.  This means the amendment has failed and there will now be a vote on the actual bill itself.


4-point PIP rule is gone

The 4-point PIP rule is effectively dead as Labour makes its biggest concession yet.  Timms has just told the House:  "I can announce that we are going to remove the clause five from the bill at committee, that we will move straight to the wider review, sometimes referred to as the Timms review, and only make changes to Pip eligibility, activities and descriptors following that review."

Clause 5 is the 4-point rule, so that is now gone.  Instead, the Timms review will decide what happens to PIP.  And if, as Labour have promised, the review is genuinely coproduced with disabled people there is very little chance of such a rule ever happening.  And if Labour did try to force it into the review decision they would be likely to face an even worse rebellion than the one they have just suffered,

This seems to mean that the main purpose of the bill is now to take money from future recipients of the UC health element and to introduce the severe conditions criteria.


Jessica Elgot of the Guardian is reporting on Bluesky that the government are considering more concessions whilst Arj Sigh of the i paper says crisis talks between Angela Rayner and the rebels on changes to PIP rules being put off until after Timms has carried out his review.


Rachel Maskell's reasoned amendment has been selected by the speaker for a vote.  This is the rebel amendment which has 39 Labour signatures. It will be voted on at the end of the dabate.  If it doesn't pass then MPs will vote on the main bill.


Debbie Abrahams, chair of the Commons work and pensions committee has confirmed this afternoon that she will "not be supporting the bill".


Given that the new amendment calling for the bill not to have a second reading got only 39 Labour signatures, most media commentators are predicting that Labour will get the bill though, though by a relatively narrow margin.  More than just these 39 Labour MPs are expected to vote against or abstain.

But the reality is that nobody can be certain, because the rebels are not a unified group and much may depend on whether Liz Kendall makes a better job of today’s proceedings than she did of yesterday’s.

 

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  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 10 hours ago
    Why is it all about pip. What about UC those cuts are savage too. There will no help just a dung heap and shovel. They don’t have the staff to help or is it all AI.

    I wish to God these wretched parasites than run this country would stop staring down their noses and actually do something to help that way save money too genius.

    Good luck to all 

  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 10 hours ago
    It's not hard to see what the next questions will be: 

    1. With the November 2026 PIP changes shelved, will existing PIP claimants continue to be assessed under the existing criteria or will they be subject to whatever test comes out of the Timms review?

    If existing PIP claimants will be subject to the post-Timms test, that means existing claimants may not be protected, depending on what the post-Timms criteria are. That makes the assurances given in the last few days worthless. 

    2. If, on the other hand, existing PIP claimants will not be subjected to the post-Timms review, what about existing LCWRA claimants who don't get PIP daily living after the WCA is abolished? Will they be subject to the post-Timms test? 

    If they will, how could the government justify exempting existing PIP claimants from being reassessed for PIP under the post-Timms test while simultaneously refusing to exempt existing UC health claimants from being reassessed for the UC health element under the post-Timms test? 

    This last question is particularly relevant, because we've seen the mess they've got into over a bill that is forecast to plunge 150,000 people into poverty. But there are 600,000 people who currently get UC health but not PIP daily living and would therefore lose their UC health if reassessed under the post-Timms test. 

    Even if we assume that no existing PIP claimants lose their PIP daily living because of the Timms review (if they did they would also lose UC health) - and that's far from certain - that's still 600,000 people who will lose their UC health and be plunged into dire poverty. If they've got into this much of a mess over a bill which plunges 150,000 people into poverty, how could they possibly get a bill through which would plunge four times as many as that into poverty?
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 10 hours ago
    I am not optimistic at all, because we still face uncertainty and Timm's review may bring worse recommendations than the 4 points rule unless the MPs will have another vote on it when it is concluded. 
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 10 hours ago
    I see Crace of the Guardian has put the boot in again to Kendall, et al. If I were Starmer I believe looking to book a holiday to Niue (or similar) asap. The newspapers - both right wing and left wing - are going to be brutal.
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 10 hours ago
    Duplicitously vague. 
    Timms is now saying he won't guarantee that future Pip changes will be in primary legislation. 
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 10 hours ago
    What an utter shambles of a Government, first the Pensioners and now this utter chaos this could have been totally avoided, if it had be done with more compassion and care over a period of time, but it doesn't look good at all for Labour I think this could be the nail in the coffin for them now, and good they should be totally ashamed of themselves for coming up with such an awful and what seems like an awful 18th Century Work House policy, Kendall should resign immediately along with Reeves Timms, Starmer for causing vulnerable Sick & Disabled claimants so much stress and anxiety over the last 12 months didn't we have enough of that with the Austerity Tories for 14 years? 
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 10 hours ago
    Guardian live text:

    Timms declines to guarantee that future Pip changes will be in primary legislation, meaning MPs can amend them
    Paul Holmes (Con) says the bill was originally meant to save £5bn a year, and that went down to £2.5bn. How much will it save now?

    Timms says that will be set out in future in the usual way.

    Barry Gardner (Lab) asks again the question John McDonnell asks – will any changes to Pip being made as a result of the Timms review be made in primary legislation or secondary legislation? He says this is important because MPs can amend primary legislation, but not secondary legislation.

    Timms says ministers will need to await the outcome of the review before they can answer that.

    ——————————————

    For everyone’s sanity - bin the bill, fire mcsweeney, reeves, Kendall and timms and send starmer to political rehab to reverse the far right brainwashing he seems to have gone though the past 2 years! 

    🍌
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 10 hours ago
    If you don't have the time to do something right the first time, then how do you find the time to do it all over again ?
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 10 hours ago
    Timms review changes to the PIP descriptors and points may now be done in secondary legislation. That is the Minister informs the Commons of the changes and the Commons has x number of days to object and vote against the change. But no ability to amend the changes. It is extremely rare for the Commons to object and vote against secondary legislation changes.
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 11 hours ago
    A new low for Timms, as he repeats the lie that people "are being told they can't work when that's not true", completely ignoring the fact that it's only possible to be classed as unfit for work by going through a WCA, an assessment long notorious for its harshness and brutality and linked to hundreds (at least) of suicides. 

    A couple of minutes later, he says "it's impossible to bring up a family on the standard rate of UC". True. So don't go ahead with reassessing existing UC health claimants who don't get PIP daily living under the proposed PIP-based criteria, a move designed to strip claimants of their UC health and force them to try to survive on.......the standard rate of UC. 
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 11 hours ago
    We’ve had the lettuce saga of liz truss

    We now have the (bonkers) banana saga

    From a mirror journalist on twitter:

    Labour MP Mary Kelly Foy now speaking in the Commons on welfare bill.

    "I popped out for a banana earlier on, and when I came back in things had changed again, so I'm more unclear on what I'm voting on"

    🍌
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 10 hours ago
      @D "I popped out for a banana earlier on, and when I came back in things had changed again, so I'm more unclear on what I'm voting on" EXACTLY! LIEbour haven't got a clue & verbal assurances never come to fruition!
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 11 hours ago
      @D I was watching when she said this. LOL! Sums the whole thing up really doesn't it?!
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 11 hours ago
    Boris Johnson once said If "I had some ham I'd do ham and eggs. But I don't have any eggs."
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 11 hours ago
    So, vote coming up, on...on, er...um....Oh yeah, cuts, cuts to...um....to....to, ah, right, cuts to the universal credit and personal independence payment bill. And savings, cuts to savings.

    There's going to be a vote, any time now, on really paring down welfare reform, and really really reducing any possible cuts to welfare expenditure. Lets hope everyone gets behind it.
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 11 hours ago
    This has turned into a total and complete farse

    I’m not sure that anyone has a clue on what’s been voted on - a bill gutted to 2 pages or the gov u turning on their ‘concessions’ over the next few days as none of these ‘measures’ are legally in writing yet (and we are being asked to trust a gov dodger than del boys dealings!)

    Bin this bill, start from stratch and take time to do it right second time - can’t believe I’m having to semi agree with kemikaze 
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 11 hours ago
    Does anyone know if they will change the descriptor questions? I fear that they will completely change the PIP questions with the specific intention to make it harder for claimant's with mental health conditions.
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 10 hours ago
      @Cuckoo21 The Timms review is looking at changing the PIP descriptors and points. The Timms review is now due to report in Autumn 2026 and then be implemented as soon as possible. 

      It is possible existing claimants will be kept on the current descriptors and points system or at least not be subject to the planned 4pt PIP rule. But we will have to await new legislation now. 

      The Timms review changes to PIP descriptors and points might be done via secondary legislation. The Minister informs the house of Commons of the changes, the Commons has x a out of days to object and vote against the changes. The Commons cannot amend the changes. It is extremely rare for the Commons to object and vote against secondary legislation changes. 
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 10 hours ago
      @Cuckoo21 I think the descriptors will be changed, goal posts and all that. It will be harder for everyone, I think. 
      But those with mental health disabilities seem to be taking the brunt, and not supporting them on par with those with physical disabilities is utterly despicable.  
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 11 hours ago
    We have a win - but now the 4 point clause is gone, i assume there can be no assurances that current claimants won't be affected by any future changes? 
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 10 hours ago
      @Slb Until it’s added (or taken away) from the actual legislative bill it is not an official concession (only a verbal promise which is not legally binding)

      After the last 48 hrs Kendall and co can’t be trusted running a bath, let alone not regress on things said by panicking ministers (who would probably say anything to avoid defeat)
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 11 hours ago
    What about the Right To Try Guarantee? (RTG)

    Many people truly need that.

    With the latest concession ditching the 4-point PIP rule, I now hope the bill passes for the RTG to take effect ASAP.
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 11 hours ago
      @Anon Pip isn’t a benefit that depends on unemployment though! Many claimants use it to support themselves in work.
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 11 hours ago
    Once again they brought a mangling on themselves for no reason but mindless cruelty. Just go! You aren’t a Labour government and I utterly regret voting for you.
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 11 hours ago
    I've been watching the debate on TV and almost everyone is in agreement that the bill is a blank canvas. There's nothing written in todays bill. They can promise what they like but come through with nothing. The concessions they've made are to be taken in good faith...No thanks.
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 11 hours ago
    I think the government is jotting down ideas on the back of a fag packet and making it up as they go along. They'll do anything to get this bill through. The government need to scrap the bill and start engaging with the disabled community and charities.

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