The second reading of the Universal Credit and Personal Independent Payment Bill begins at 1.40pm today.

The vote is expected at 7.00pm

You can watch the debate live on parliament tv here.

We won’t be giving a blow-by-blow account of the debate, but you are welcome to comment on proceedings below the line.


You can see a full list of the votes on the second reading here.  49 Labour MPs rebelled.


The vote on the Universal Credit and Personal Independence Payment Bill second reading is:  For 335.  Against 260.  A majority in favour of the bill of 75.


Here is the list of which MPs voted for and against the amendment.


The vote on the rebel amendment has now been held.  149 in favour of the bill being dropped without a second reading, 328 against.  This means the amendment has failed and there will now be a vote on the actual bill itself.


4-point PIP rule is gone

The 4-point PIP rule is effectively dead as Labour makes its biggest concession yet.  Timms has just told the House:  "I can announce that we are going to remove the clause five from the bill at committee, that we will move straight to the wider review, sometimes referred to as the Timms review, and only make changes to Pip eligibility, activities and descriptors following that review."

Clause 5 is the 4-point rule, so that is now gone.  Instead, the Timms review will decide what happens to PIP.  And if, as Labour have promised, the review is genuinely coproduced with disabled people there is very little chance of such a rule ever happening.  And if Labour did try to force it into the review decision they would be likely to face an even worse rebellion than the one they have just suffered,

This seems to mean that the main purpose of the bill is now to take money from future recipients of the UC health element and to introduce the severe conditions criteria.


Jessica Elgot of the Guardian is reporting on Bluesky that the government are considering more concessions whilst Arj Sigh of the i paper says crisis talks between Angela Rayner and the rebels on changes to PIP rules being put off until after Timms has carried out his review.


Rachel Maskell's reasoned amendment has been selected by the speaker for a vote.  This is the rebel amendment which has 39 Labour signatures. It will be voted on at the end of the dabate.  If it doesn't pass then MPs will vote on the main bill.


Debbie Abrahams, chair of the Commons work and pensions committee has confirmed this afternoon that she will "not be supporting the bill".


Given that the new amendment calling for the bill not to have a second reading got only 39 Labour signatures, most media commentators are predicting that Labour will get the bill though, though by a relatively narrow margin.  More than just these 39 Labour MPs are expected to vote against or abstain.

But the reality is that nobody can be certain, because the rebels are not a unified group and much may depend on whether Liz Kendall makes a better job of today’s proceedings than she did of yesterday’s.

 

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  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 7 hours ago
    I haven't a clue now what welfare cuts and policy they are all now suppose to be voting on! It is an absolute shambles. 
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      · 5 hours ago
      @John The severe conditions group only comes into existence with this bill - how can they narrow eligibility for a group that doesn't yet exist? Unless you're referring to the stipulations in addition to the LCWRA criteria, which at present are worded more tightly than the LCWRA descriptors. I'm still not sure if that's deliberate or just sloppy wording which could be amended. Though how it will be amended with the way it's being rammed through at breakneck speed I don't know. 
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 6 hours ago
      @MJ
      Cutting UC health element for new claimants except the severe conditions criteria group and freezing the uprating UC health element for new claimants except the severe conditions criteria group.

      Narrowing eligibility to the UC severe criteria group for new claimants

      Increasing UC standard allowance by more than inflation.

      For existing UC health recipients and for new UC health claimants in the severe criteria group. Increasing UC standard allowance +UC health combined by at least inflation. 
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 7 hours ago
    Why don’t they just withdraw it and retain a shred of dignity?
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 7 hours ago
    So the 4 point rule is dead now. What is actually left? This is a pure political, incompetent, mediocre farce. The bill is badly designed, poorly thought through and completely inadequate. Resignations please. Some of them are not fit for office 
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 8 hours ago
    Starmer is a complete failure and a fool, and this will drag him down. The cruel brute.
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 8 hours ago
      Government delays Pip changes in last-minute concession ahead of key welfare vote  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/ckg33njxve0t
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 8 hours ago
    Diane Abbott is a legend

    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 7 hours ago
      @HL She's been one of our strongest defenders the whole time. 
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 8 hours ago
    Whatever happens , whatever the outcome, these pathetic politicians in office are making a mockery of this country and today the most vulnerable people in society are going to be victims of incompetent politicians and no way this going to save money.
    In the coming months the whole country will be facing tax rises more taxes and more taxes because the pathetic politicians in government can’t get it right from the start a total and utter Shambles…
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 3 hours ago
      @Cuckoo21 We have to keep fighting and make the case for wealth taxes. As professor Richard Murphy pointed out today tax relief for the pensions of the top 10% cost the public purse 28 billion a year 
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 7 hours ago
      @Robin Hood Yes and all it does is drive up division and hatred towards disabled people. Because we will be blamed for the working people who  don't claim any benefits having their taxes increased to pay for us, because that's what will be portrayed. It makes me furious. Those people will then vote for the next government - probably the conservatives, who will try to cut benefits further. It's all a shambles.
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 8 hours ago
    Are disabled ppl doing a "sit in at Westminster,? I just saw someone lie down on the floor, with others in wheelchairs and mobility scooters and others,surrounding them, security guy approached them and radioed through to someone. Then the camera shifted away. 
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 8 hours ago
    Just reported in the guardian, “How latest concession means government left with welfare bill that won't affect Pip eligibility
    Here is the Commons library briefing on the bill. It explains what all parts of the bill do. All the elements relating to Pip are in clause five, and without clause five, this bill will not affect Pip eligibility – now or in the future.

    The DWP may have an aspiration still to impose the four-point rule for Pip eligibility. But it has, in effect, delegated that decision to the Timms review, and if, as it say, that review is going go genuinely be co-produced with disabled people, then it is very hard to see the four-point rule being revived.

    And here is the text of the bill itself.

    Although this is the bill that will pass tonight, if MPs vote in favour, the Timms announcement means that, with clause five removed, all that will be left will be a bill affecting the universal credit.”
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 8 hours ago
    They've just added more consessions (6pm) a head of the vote.  This may mean that the 4 point rule never comes into play and there will be a delay implementing any changes to the criteria until after the Timms review. 
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 8 hours ago
    After Stephen Timms made his dramatic concession in the Commons, Andy McDonald (Lab) used a point of order to claim that it was now was not clear what MPs were voting on.

    And Andrew Pakes (Lab), resuming his speech said that, as someone from a party that often debated clause four, he was glad to hear the news about clause five
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 8 hours ago
    It looks like we have won a big victory. Here's the Guardian comment on this:

    "
    In the Commons Anna Dixon (Lab) has just intervened to say the Timms review should be brought forward.

    Andrew Pakes (Lab), who has the floor, says he agrees. He says he would like to see Duracell batteries inserted into the review.

    At this point Stephen Timms, the social security and disability minister, intervenes, to make the concession reported earlier. (See 5.18pm.)

    He says the government has heard the concerns from Labour MP about the time his review of Pip assessment will take. He goes on:

    We have heard those concerns, and that is why I can announce that we are going to remove the clause five from the bill at committee, that we will move straight to the wider review, sometimes referred to as the Timms review, and only make changes to Pip eligibility, activities and descriptors following that review.

    The government is committed to concluding the review by the autumn of next year.

    That is another big concession. It has two implications.

    It means there is a chance that new Pip eligibility rules will not come into force in November 2026. (The government said it wanted the Timms review to report in the autumn of next year, and that it would implement its recommendations as quickly as possible, but legislating for welfare reforms is never quick.)

    More importantly, it means that the switch to the four-point Pip eligibility rule may never happen at all. It won’t be in the legislation. And there is no guarantee the Timms review will revive the idea – certainly if it is genuinely “co-produced” with disabled people, as the government promises. The four-point rule was the key instrument that was going to deliver the £2.5bn savings that, this morning, the Treasury was going to deliver.

    This means MPs are set to pass a bill that won’t necessarily deliver anything like the level of cuts originally planned. It is a huge win for those campaigning against it.''
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 8 hours ago
    I've forced myself to watch parliament channel and i am very surprised how some of these MP,s are fighting tooth and nail, but i,m sad that not a lot of them are there. I just pray the others who haven't shown there face have any guts to vote with truth and honesty.
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 8 hours ago
      @Fiona There are news reports just now about a lot of MPs abstaining, but the sources seam to be vague.
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 8 hours ago
    Timms just stated that clause 5 of the bill is being withdrawn - and the deputy speaker just stated exactly what I've been saying for days - that today's vote is entirely and only on THE ORIGINAL BILL - so no "promised" changes are binding and the ONLY way to ensure that we get what is promised is to KILL THIS BILL AND CREATE A NEW ONE.   A Liverpool Labour MP has just said the same thing - MPs are being conned into APPROVING THE ORIGINAL BILL - and she says she cannot do that.

    The Clause 5 move is HUGE - that's the section that sets out the new "four points" rule.   What Timms now says (and we have to assume he was messaged and order to make this concession as he suddenly stood up in the middle of the debate) is that the new rules will NOT be set in advance of his report.   

    And as one MP just said - what the hell are they now debating?   There's basically nothing left of the bill - so how can they vote to pass a bill that is SUPPOSEDLY going to almost entirely rewritten in the next eight days?

    The press is quietly (ie, NOT the right-wing press) reporting that the government is holding "talks" with MPs and rebels even as the debate in underway, with Rayner said to be acting as the sounding board for the government.   If that's already lead to the HUGE concession of pulling Clause 5, we may be about to see something unexpected.

    I was expecting the bill to pass this stage but with the around 50 rebel votes against.   I'm now far more hopeful - the bill may well be stopped on the basis of "what's the point?" and we could even see a rare event - a government whipping members to abstain on a vote for their own bill.   It's rare but it happens, including just TWO YEARS AGO when Starmer's Labour introduced a bill on sewage but were then forced to abstain from supporting THEIR OWN BILL because they hadn't thought it through and the tories were able to submit their own amendment which would have turned the well-intentioned plan upside down.   It is definitely on the cards that the tories will seek to amend this pathetic mess of a bill too - forcing Labour MPs to support and defend the original bill and then oppose it.   This bill needs to end today - and that is looking more likely now. 

    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 8 hours ago
      @Peter I don't see how you can say legislation for welfare reform is never quick given the speed at which they want to pass the Universal Credit and Personal Independence Payment Bill. That should now really have it's name change to the Universal Credit Bill.
       
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 8 hours ago
    What happened to treating disabled people without discrimination, surely it is discriminatory to single out mental health as a disability and penalise those with it?  
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 8 hours ago
    Another honest and passionate argument from Imran Hussain.
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    · 8 hours ago
    LBC are saying that the disability minister is about to get up at the dispatch box to announce another concession.
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    · 8 hours ago
    The 4 point PIP rule is now delayed until the Timms review new PIP assessment system is implemented. 
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 8 hours ago
    Reported in the Guardian, 

    Jessica Elgot and Pippa Crerar point out in their story that the last-minute concession that No 10 is set to approve would be a humiliation for Liz Kendall.

    While the move is expected to secure the bill’s second reading, it would be a humiliating climbdown for Liz Kendall, the welfare secretary, who just hours before had told MPs the new four-point threshold would apply from November 2026 and emphasised the need for the government to take its time over the Timms review to get it right.
    Steven Swinford, political editor of the Times, has made the same point on social media.
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 9 hours ago
    Isn’t suicide the biggest killer of adults under the age of 35 in the UK?  Suicide kills more than cancer, more than Covid, more than any other illness, yet you would think listening to some of these MPs that mental health was just a minor cold.
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 7 hours ago
      @James Suicide is the biggest killer of men under 50, that is how serious having mental health problems and mental health disorders is. This language they are using against mental health sufferers is absolutely unacceptable. It is discrimination towards a minority and as such should be protected by the human rights laws. 

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